Boiler installer modified external wall of flat without warning

[Peter Rabbit]

Branching off from my previous thread, I had gas engineers replace an old boiler with a new condensing boiler in a leasehold flat in a block with a freeholder landlord. The job was to take out the old boiler and put the new boiler in at the same location. I found out that the engineers had made external alterations - drilling a new flue, and adding a condensate drain pipe that connects to a downpipe. I didn’t expect them to make external alterations, they had not raised the intention or possibility with me beforehand, and I had not gained prior consent for these (and my lease requires the landlord’s consent for external alterations). (Not being that knowledgeable about boilers, I didn't know the replacement boiler may require a condensate drain to be installed in addition to the existing pipework.) The engineers are Gas Safe registered.

I expected that the engineers would inform me and ask my permission before making external alterations. I am wondering whether if I have to pay costs due to breaching the lease, do I have any grounds for reclaiming all or part of those costs from the engineers? One avenue seems like it may be Consumer Rights law, where professionals are expected to perform with "reasonable care and skill", but I don't know if avoiding modifying external walls in flats without permission would come under that.

If the gas engineers didn’t act improperly, then when replacing a boiler, what process are leaseholders expected to reasonably go through to ensure there is not an accidental breach of the lease, if workmen may do such things without telling us?

Thanks for any help you can give.

 

[ETAF]

the engineers did tell me on 2 occasions when changing boilers what would be necessary - particularly the condensate and where they would need to put it - This was ALL at the time of the quote and what would be involved , in 1 case , replacement of a 40year old boiler and new flue position and needed a condestate pipework into a drain - infact into soil pipe which
we discussed all this , or at least they all made me aware , during the quote stage - and what the options would be

did noone explain anything ??

did you not have to tell the lease holder that you were changing the boiler anyway ????

 

[Peter Rabbit]

Thanks. No nothing about this was mentioned. In the written quote the description of the work is just "Boiler staying in current position" (implicitly meaning to replace the previously existing boiler and put the new one in the same position in the flat). I had a phone call with the company director, and they just assured me that they didn't think the job would be complex and didn't mention anything in particular about pipework or external modifications. I'm not aware of any clause in my lease that would require me to notify the freeholder if I changed the boiler and there was no external alteration.

 

[ETAF]

I cannot provide any further info
If nothing is in quote about the work to be carried out not sure where that leaves you
I’m sure my old one from around 2010 did mention both the flue making good with brickwork which may not match 100% the old 1904 bricks but they would endeavour to get a near as possible match
And also the path and work required for consistate
I also think there was provision for changing the gas pipe from 15mn to 22mn but a pressure test would be taken
In fact we had 3 quotes and all
Mentioned the work
Sorry cannot advise with your specific situation

 

[martygturner]

Its the terms of your lease that matter not what the installers did, its up to you to specify what the conditions of your lease to the installer and ensure that their plan does not contravene you lease agreement, in writing. That would be YOUR responsibility, however just because its like for like replacement does not remove you requirement to notify or seek permission. your lease will include a line that's says Any or all alterations must be notified to the freeholder before work commences, then there is a line that states exclusions eg decoration , light fittings etc and then something permission can only be refused if, dependant on the clause wording... if you make an alteration that will have an effect on either the building or the other owners... you changed the existing boiler, as a landlord myself I would take that as an item that could have a material affect on the building and the other owners and seek an independent inspection, if you were my lease holder I would take a very dim view of you installing a safety critical item without permission.

Why, because I would have to notify the insurer of the change - block of flats insurance contains loads of clauses about changes as it alters the risk, for example on one policy we have it clearly states that any water heater must be on the insurers approved list and that any installer must take out indemnity insurance with the insurer before work commences. Evidently the insurer was stung by a cowboy install causing damage to other flats. Failure to comply would mean that the risk that was insured would not be covered in a claim... and i hate to tell you but as you did it you would be liable for all damages.

You have two options, apply to the freeholder for retrospective permission ( best done through a solicitor) or keep quite and hope that the freeholder does not notice, bearing in mind that any boiler change is notifiable to building control and so a record will exist. So in the event of say a escape of water you could be liable for damages to all the effected flats.

Its not the responsibility of the installer to ensure you comply with your lease... that's your job.

 

[gas112]

Do you honestly think that when the original boiler in your property and the others in the block where fitted people contacted the free holder

 

[Peter Rabbit]

Thanks for the perspectives.

its up to you to specify what the conditions of your lease to the installer and ensure that their plan does not contravene you lease agreement, in writing.

OK, so it's necessary to get a fairly detailed plan up front?

What about if the installer modifies the plan during the job without consulting? In my case, it's clear from communications following the work that they were not expecting to drill a new flue hole when the work started, and they decided to do so only during the course of the job, without consulting me. Having a detailed plan up front wouldn't seem to protect against this, unless the installer is expected not to take any action that's not written - though that seems like it would be hard to comply with in practice. Should leaseholders explicitly specify beforehand not to alter the walls or external parts of the building if this should not be required? It seems hard to make sure that no clause in the lease would be breached without being able to trust that installers won't take certain actions unexpectedly. I'm just trying to understand what is the responsible process to follow for a leaseholder.

apply to the freeholder for retrospective permission ( best done through a solicitor)

Is it very recommended to use a solicitor from the start, or would it usually be best to first approach the freeholder directly to notify them of the issue?

Re whether permission was needed to replace a boiler even if no external or structural work were done - it's not something I think could really be assessed here, I will get it checked, but I don't see any term in my lease saying it requires permission (only required for "structural or external alterations or any additions to the Premises"). It doesn't seem like it's always the case that permission is needed e.g. https://www.justanswer.com/uk-law/nlugn-need-swap-boiler-like-for-like-need.html . Though I agree that it would seem like a sensible clause to have from the landlord's point of view.

Do you honestly think that when the original boiler in your property and the others in the block where fitted people contacted the free holder

Sorry I'm not sure I understand - is that addressed to me? My old boiler was quite possibly installed when the property was built (2004), so then it wouldn't have concerned any leaseholders.

 

[martygturner]

Do you honestly think that when the original boiler in your property and the others in the block where fitted people contacted the free holder

yes they should as if its in their lease then they take responsibility for damages.

Thanks for the perspectives.


OK, so it's necessary to get a fairly detailed plan up front?

What about if the installer modifies the plan during the job without consulting? In my case, it's clear from communications following the work that they were not expecting to drill a new flue hole when the work started, and they decided to do so only during the course of the job, without consulting me. Having a detailed plan up front wouldn't seem to protect against this, unless the installer is expected not to take any action that's not written - though that seems like it would be hard to comply with in practice. Should leaseholders explicitly specify beforehand not to alter the walls or external parts of the building if this should not be required? It seems hard to make sure that no clause in the lease would be breached without being able to trust that installers won't take certain actions unexpectedly. I'm just trying to understand what is the responsible process to follow for a leaseholder.


Is it very recommended to use a solicitor from the start, or would it usually be best to first approach the freeholder directly to notify them of the issue?

Re whether permission was needed to replace a boiler even if no external or structural work were done - it's not something I think could really be assessed here, I will get it checked, but I don't see any term in my lease saying it requires permission (only required for "structural or external alterations or any additions to the Premises"). It doesn't seem like it's always the case that permission is needed e.g. https://www.justanswer.com/uk-law/nlugn-need-swap-boiler-like-for-like-need.html . Though I agree that it would seem like a sensible clause to have from the landlord's point of view.


Sorry I'm not sure I understand - is that addressed to me? My old boiler was quite possibly installed when the property was built (2004), so then it wouldn't have concerned any leaseholders.

At the end of the day its your job to comply with your lease not your subcontractor...you gave ( by ommison in not specifying in writing to your installer what they could or could not do ) permission to install the boiler...they will never be liable as you have no agreement . Like for like - 24kw combi replaced with another 24kw combi... ooops if only the mug that employed us had told us that it needed no exterior changes we could have done it differently... but he did'nt - case dismissed.