Brexit: Michael Gove says UK voters can change final deal

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

What gets forgotten is that immigration causes issues for the exit country as well as the destination country:



https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/09/free-movement-of-people-explainer/

Perhaps you have misrepresented the opinion of the IMF. The IMF said: "While settlers in Eastern European countries have contributed to the wealth of other EU nations".
A considerable difference in interpretation than "causes issues".

 

[Notch7]

Perhaps you have misrepresented the opinion of the IMF. The IMF said: "While settlers in Eastern European countries have contributed to the wealth of other EU nations".
A considerable difference in interpretation than "causes issues".

Your drive for point scoring allows a breathtaking level of stupidity to overcome any commonsense that may actually occupy your mind.

I did not misrepresent the opinion of the IMF, settlers may have contributed to the wealth but that does not exclude the possibility it also creates issues.

In any case, the primary point I was making is that immigration issues shoukd be considered from the perspective of both exit and destination countries. However your immature drive for point scoring chose to totally overlook that.

Let me refer to it again:

their departure in droves since the fall of Communism has held back growth and slowed the rise of living standards in their home countries.

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Your drive for point scoring allows a breathtaking level of stupidity to overcome any commonsense that may actually occupy your mind.

temper! temper!

I did not misrepresent the opinion of the IMF, settlers may have contributed to the wealth but that does not exclude the possibility it also creates issues.

Issues that we have already agreed, the blame for it should be laid firmly at the feet of government, not the migrants! Therefore you misrepresented the wealth created as "issues created".

In any case, the primary point I was making is that immigration issues shoukd be considered from the perspective of both exit and destination countries.

And in the process you conveniently misrepresented the opinion of the IMF.
The "primary point" that you concern yourself with is: a) in contrast to the "issues" created in the destination country, and b) of lesser concern to most of those in the UK, than the other point, which is the issues in the destination country.
If you wanted to discuss the issues created in the country of origin, why not address those issues alone instead of comparing them to "issues" created in the destination country. They are totally different, not comparable, and only remotely connected.

However your immature drive for point scoring chose to totally overlook that.

Now when you have finished your temper tantrum, address the topic, not abuse the poster.

 

[SirGalahad]

So the deal is we pay between £35-£39 billion to stay within the Customs Union and Single Market and have no say over future regulations or treaties, or we pay nothing and stay within the Customs Union and Single Market and have a say over future regulations.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/8...n-Labour-Party-EU-PMQs-House-of-Commons-video

The levels of hypocrisy.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...k-from-the-madness-of-a-hard-brexit-1.3320096

Pretty much this. Brexit but not as we know it.

 

[JohnD]

The Irish Times (link above) quotes text from the agreement:

"“In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the internal market and the customs union which, now or in the future, support North-South co-operation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement.”"

So we conform to the rules of the single market and the customs union, after throwing away our right to participate in framing those rules.

FFS

 

[noseall]

FFS

Correct. Dumb Quitters.

 

[transam]

more ball cocks from the dumb remoaner

 

[SirGalahad]

Actually that is the default position - revert to regulatory alignment for the Single Market and Customs Union - so a negotiated deal will actually be more not less integration.

Brexit is the perfect UK gift. The EU will dictate terms to us and we will have no say and best yet still continue to pay pretty much like before. This isn't cutting your nose off to spite your face, its shooting yourself in the foot and blowing your face off.

I am still shaking my head at the euphoria.

 

[noseall]

The whole Brexit thing has turned into a Quitters worst nightmare. Someone break it to Roger gently.

 

[wobs]

That's (as I understand it) the way democracy works - vote for it and stick with it. Perhaps elections should be re-run if the party some people wanted doesn't get into power?

Democracy does not end with a vote. If that were the case, we would have an election, and the losers would go away, and not engage with the Government in parliament. As it is, we have a vote, but continue to debate. Without this, we would run the risk of taking a vote, and then even if it was a mistake, would have to go through with it. This is an irrational approach.

I should add that Sweden and Switzerland have both ignored referendums in the past, as they realised they were irrational ways to proceed. But they are still democratic nations.

We should have a vote on what type of Brexit deal on offer, and include abandoning it all together. The truth is that the 48% is now rather more than that, as there are people who regret voting leave. There are also people who don't like where Brexit is going (but still in favour in principle), who may decide they would rather stay than go for the type of Brexit on offer.

A no-deal situation is called a "cliff-edge" for a reason, so if it were just the deal or no deal, this is hardly a choice. We need a third way.

Another reason why we should include an "abandon Brexit" option in a vote is that it was a poorly thought out referendum, as there was no detail on what type of Brexit was on offer.
https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/...-swiss-the-brexit-referendum-wasnt-legitimate

All that said, I suspect we may just go through with it without a vote, find it sucks, and end up back in the EU in the long term (eg. 15 years), and we end up using Euros.

 

[breadnbutter]

All that said, I suspect we may just go through with it without a vote, find it sucks, and end up back in the EU in the long term (eg. 15 years), and we end up using Euros.

yes, we will end back in it, by a another route,as the E.U spread out to turkey, then global, as said many times one world government.
that's were it will be heading.
waste of time arguing about it. as the rudder that steers this world is not all in mans hands.

 

[Notch7]

ssues that we have already agreed, the blame for it should be laid firmly at the feet of government, not the migrants! Therefore you misrepresented the wealth created as "issues created".

Wrong! Where did I place blame on migrants?

nd in the process you conveniently misrepresented the opinion of the IMF.
The "primary point" that you concern yourself with is: a) in contrast to the "issues" created in the destination country, and b) of lesser concern to most of those in the UK, than the other point, which is the issues in the destination country.
If you wanted to discuss the issues created in the country of origin, why not address those issues alone instead of comparing them to "issues" created in the destination country. They are totally different, not comparable, and only remotely connected.

All of this is wrong. I didnt misrepresent, I quoted verbatum.

I didnt concern myself with any contrast, I simply raised the pertinent point that EU freeddom of movement creates an issue in the country of origin.

The IMF's figures stating that migrants have increased gdp by 1% may represent a financial benefit overall, but that benefit hasnt been to the gain of the majority, as gdp increases hasnt lead to wage rises.

No nation has ever prospered by allowing its workforce to become nomads to suit the short-term needs of others. A central right of any worker is to be able to prosper and grow in the land of his or her birth and to have meaningful, gainful and enjoyable employment. When Norman Tebbit told workers to get on their bikes, there was outrage. And yet so-called free movement is now demanded by some on the ‘left’.

Any plan, as the Labour manifesto suggests, for full employment and skills development and hi-tech manufacturing, with re-established public services and national rail, requires that we end the madness of the enforced migration of labour. We must leave the Single Market.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsit...ovement-anti-working-class/20195#.Wi7WNM6nzbU

Look at neoliberal immigration

 

[IWalkLikeHimaMartian]

Wrong! Where did I place blame on migrants?

Here:

What gets forgotten is that immigration causes issues for ... the destination country:

All of this is wrong. I didnt misrepresent, I quoted verbatum.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/09/free-movement-of-people-explainer/

You cannot tell the difference between "issues created" and "contributed to the wealth"?

I didnt concern myself with any contrast, I simply raised the pertinent point that EU freeddom of movement creates an issue in the country of origin.

How is that relevant?
Or is it a bit of back pedaling?
If you were genuine in your concern, it would surely be of value as a separate thread, would it not? Otherwise it is totally irrelevant.

The IMF's figures stating that migrants have increased gdp by 1% may represent a financial benefit overall,

Only for the rights of Eastern Europen countries' citizens for 2004 and 2007. Not an absolute for all movements, as you present it. Another misrepresentation. You do not seem to be accurate with your representations of others' opinions.

but that benefit hasnt been to the gain of the majority, as gdp increases hasnt lead to wage rises.

Did you just make that bit up, and pretend it was in the original report?

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsit...ovement-anti-working-class/20195#.Wi7WNM6nzbU
Look at neoliberal immigration

FFS, you are quoting one individual fireman who is totally anti-foreigner, and set himself up as the sole representative of Trade Unions against EU.
Get real!

 

[transam]

There should be no 2nd referendum on leaving the EU. Those calling for it wish to subvert democracy.

But then attempt to put across there BS argument that they are some how being democratic

Remoaners , its a tough old life poke up with it or ship out imho , to some state that may better suit your democratic values

Saudi ?? Eygpt ?? West Bank ?? Russia ?? etc etc blimey we can even have a whip round & contribute to the cost of a suit case

Way R bee will get a case with wheels on

 

[JohnD]

Those calling for it wish to subvert democracy.

Having a vote is undemocratic?

You're just scared of a vote because Brexit has turned out to be such an omnishambles.