I thought you were going to suggest it had been bent out of shape hitting a tree.
is that possible?
Budget car tyres
- Thread starter sxturbo
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I thought you were going to suggest it had been bent out of shape hitting a tree.
is that possible?
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There's no evidence of crash damage, and nothing on the hpi check...
I did just go and use an angle finder app on my phone, but the driveway isn't flat and the suspension is under compression and the wheels aren't straight, so the results weren't correct. (Showed 5 degrees one side and .5 degrees the other lol)
The company who just replaced the suspense for me also done the realignment and didn't mention anything, but I did have to take it back a 2nd time as the alignment was well out when we drove it away.
Usually I do all the work myself (the front suspension isn't fun on these), but my wife is friends of the garage and she helped them move units so they done all the recent suspension work for free for us. So I felt bad getting them to redo the alignment, but it is highly possible they were lazy and just adjusted the one side.
This time it's going to a specialist alignment firm,
Looking at those photos, there's something seriously wrong with it! Audi wouldn't design something that (regardless what brand of tyres were on it) wore the inside edge down to the cords, whilst there was still 2.5mm of tread on the rest of it. With a better tyre, I'd expect that the same would happen, maybe just a bit later than with a cheapo tyre.
If you want to check camber yourself, the best way is to make a bit of straight bar and tap it to take an M6 bolt. The standard pitch of one of those is 1.0mm, Cut it so that the bottom of the bar is against the wheel rim at the bottom, and the end of the M6 bolt is against the rim at the top. Then just find yourself some level ground and take an ordinary (good quality) spirit level with you and out it against the bar. Adjust the screw until the spirit level shows vertical and count the turns of the screw required to make it so. That's how many mm difference there is between the top and the bottom of the tyre. From there, it's a simple calculation to get the camber. Even if you just take the bar and walk round to the other side of the car, you'll soon see if there's a big difference from side to side.
A lot of front toe-out can also eat the inside edge of a tyre. Do you know what the camber and toe settings are supposed to be?
In my experience, places that offer free tracking checks are massively variable. The quality of their equipment counts for nothing, if the guys don't know how to use it. In my experience, quite a few don't! I don't know how good the access under the car is, but if you run a tape measure from the edge of the tread groove closest to the centre of the tyre to the same groove on the other side at the front edge of the tyre (as high up as you can get without hitting the underside of the car), and then so the same from the same two grooves at the back edge of each front tyre (again, as high as you can without the tape measure fouling anything), you might be able to get a rough idea whether it's toeing in or out. If the front measurement is greater, it's toeing-out, if the rear measurement is greater, it's toeing-in. Obviously, this isn't accurate enough to adjust the tracking, but looking at that front tyre photo, I think something's a long way out, so it might well show up on a tape measure.
You say you use good quality parts, but I think it's unlikely that anything will be as good as genuine Audi. Sure, some aftermarket stuff is loads better than other, and some is close to OE, but generally, OE stuff is the best quality. (At least in my experience).
Lastly, I wouldn't place too much credance on the tyre grip ratings. They're done under lab conditions at a standard temperature. Winter tyres, for example, often have rubbish wet grip characteristics in these tests, but that's because they're optimised for low temperatures. Whenever you give a manufacturer targets against which he is going to be assessed, he goes all-out to make something that performs well in the areas and under the conditions against which it is assessed. Cheaper tyres will generally save money by not bothering to deliver excellence across a broad range of operating conditions. I've had SOME good budget tyres in the past ("Sava", for example, were excellent), but I've had others that were truly awful, either in very cold or very hot weather. I've also had tyres that seemed OK at first, but very rapidly lost grip as they aged. Again, worth remembering that the standard tyre rating tests are carried out on new tyres. Similarly, some develop flat spots if the car is parked up for a long time, whereas others seem more resistant to it.
If you want to check camber yourself, the best way is to make a bit of straight bar and tap it to take an M6 bolt. The standard pitch of one of those is 1.0mm, Cut it so that the bottom of the bar is against the wheel rim at the bottom, and the end of the M6 bolt is against the rim at the top. Then just find yourself some level ground and take an ordinary (good quality) spirit level with you and out it against the bar. Adjust the screw until the spirit level shows vertical and count the turns of the screw required to make it so. That's how many mm difference there is between the top and the bottom of the tyre. From there, it's a simple calculation to get the camber. Even if you just take the bar and walk round to the other side of the car, you'll soon see if there's a big difference from side to side.
A lot of front toe-out can also eat the inside edge of a tyre. Do you know what the camber and toe settings are supposed to be?
In my experience, places that offer free tracking checks are massively variable. The quality of their equipment counts for nothing, if the guys don't know how to use it. In my experience, quite a few don't! I don't know how good the access under the car is, but if you run a tape measure from the edge of the tread groove closest to the centre of the tyre to the same groove on the other side at the front edge of the tyre (as high up as you can get without hitting the underside of the car), and then so the same from the same two grooves at the back edge of each front tyre (again, as high as you can without the tape measure fouling anything), you might be able to get a rough idea whether it's toeing in or out. If the front measurement is greater, it's toeing-out, if the rear measurement is greater, it's toeing-in. Obviously, this isn't accurate enough to adjust the tracking, but looking at that front tyre photo, I think something's a long way out, so it might well show up on a tape measure.
You say you use good quality parts, but I think it's unlikely that anything will be as good as genuine Audi. Sure, some aftermarket stuff is loads better than other, and some is close to OE, but generally, OE stuff is the best quality. (At least in my experience).
Lastly, I wouldn't place too much credance on the tyre grip ratings. They're done under lab conditions at a standard temperature. Winter tyres, for example, often have rubbish wet grip characteristics in these tests, but that's because they're optimised for low temperatures. Whenever you give a manufacturer targets against which he is going to be assessed, he goes all-out to make something that performs well in the areas and under the conditions against which it is assessed. Cheaper tyres will generally save money by not bothering to deliver excellence across a broad range of operating conditions. I've had SOME good budget tyres in the past ("Sava", for example, were excellent), but I've had others that were truly awful, either in very cold or very hot weather. I've also had tyres that seemed OK at first, but very rapidly lost grip as they aged. Again, worth remembering that the standard tyre rating tests are carried out on new tyres. Similarly, some develop flat spots if the car is parked up for a long time, whereas others seem more resistant to it.
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Great advice from Avocet.
I would just add: find a well established independent tyre place (avoid the quickfit and similar), ask what equipment they use and when it was calibrated.
Explain your problem and ask to have the car checked by their most experienced technician on wheel alignment.
I would just add: find a well established independent tyre place (avoid the quickfit and similar), ask what equipment they use and when it was calibrated.
Explain your problem and ask to have the car checked by their most experienced technician on wheel alignment.
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Thanks Avocet,
the parts used are OEM parts, but not from audi, for example, the suspension arms are from Lemforder as they make them for Audi, the hi-pressure fuel pump was from Hitachi as again they make it for audi, the brakes were from ATE again as they supply Audi, oil filters are usually Mann+Hummel, though the last one was a bosch filter, (handy the wife works in a motor factors), the shocks were Bilstein (supply Audi), so they are definatley top quality parts, its always been a case of if it needs it it gets it.
i've used budgets on an old Mondeo st200 i once had as they cost me £15 per tyre where i used to work (was a number of years ago), i cant remember what brand they were, Jinyu possibly, i was selling the car and all 4 tyres needed replacing, they seemed ok, but i only done a few hundred miles on them.
i am a bit nervous about putting budgets on, and wasn't sure what the EPC tyre ratings were like, were they to be trusted or not. The hankook ventus tyres currently on it were very good and was really happy with them, though they are still £120 per tyre i paid a few years ago when i replaced all 4.
the budgets will be a stop gap till i get things sorted and make sure everything set up right (it also gets me out of a pickle, as i have an expensive couple of months ahead all pre-booked).
Unfortunately the access under the car is terrible and it is all but impossible to do as you suggested, as it has the S-Line suspension on it.
i've never used halfords or kwik-fit etc, when the tyres were installed it did go to a local tyre garage for full alignment on the hunter system, but my wife took it and the rear camber was 0.2 degree out on 1 side but the company didn't want to adjust it for such a small margin (i think they could see it was all rusty and seized and would turn out to be a massive job). She said she was only there for 15 minutes, and they only charged her half price, which leads me to think that maybe they didn't adjust anything.
anyway i'm going on Friday and will chat to them and show them the bad tyre (apparently the passenger side isnt much better but at least doesn't have the cord showing through, but we are replacing as a pair)
this is who we used a few years ago when the tyres were first installed, and will be going back on friday https://www.tyre-smart.com/wheel-alignment
the parts used are OEM parts, but not from audi, for example, the suspension arms are from Lemforder as they make them for Audi, the hi-pressure fuel pump was from Hitachi as again they make it for audi, the brakes were from ATE again as they supply Audi, oil filters are usually Mann+Hummel, though the last one was a bosch filter, (handy the wife works in a motor factors), the shocks were Bilstein (supply Audi), so they are definatley top quality parts, its always been a case of if it needs it it gets it.
i've used budgets on an old Mondeo st200 i once had as they cost me £15 per tyre where i used to work (was a number of years ago), i cant remember what brand they were, Jinyu possibly, i was selling the car and all 4 tyres needed replacing, they seemed ok, but i only done a few hundred miles on them.
i am a bit nervous about putting budgets on, and wasn't sure what the EPC tyre ratings were like, were they to be trusted or not. The hankook ventus tyres currently on it were very good and was really happy with them, though they are still £120 per tyre i paid a few years ago when i replaced all 4.
the budgets will be a stop gap till i get things sorted and make sure everything set up right (it also gets me out of a pickle, as i have an expensive couple of months ahead all pre-booked).
Unfortunately the access under the car is terrible and it is all but impossible to do as you suggested, as it has the S-Line suspension on it.
i've never used halfords or kwik-fit etc, when the tyres were installed it did go to a local tyre garage for full alignment on the hunter system, but my wife took it and the rear camber was 0.2 degree out on 1 side but the company didn't want to adjust it for such a small margin (i think they could see it was all rusty and seized and would turn out to be a massive job). She said she was only there for 15 minutes, and they only charged her half price, which leads me to think that maybe they didn't adjust anything.
anyway i'm going on Friday and will chat to them and show them the bad tyre (apparently the passenger side isnt much better but at least doesn't have the cord showing through, but we are replacing as a pair)
this is who we used a few years ago when the tyres were first installed, and will be going back on friday https://www.tyre-smart.com/wheel-alignment
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Could I just throw my old school thoughts into the post ref your control arms and the amount you get through? I would be so bold as to question the way they have been fitted, any rubber suspension component, such as a bushes that are subject to a twisting force, should not have their retaining bolts tighten until 1/ The weight of the vehicle is on it's tyres, 2/ the vehicle has been pushed backwards and forwards to settle the droop imposed on the suspension when it was jacked up. Failure to do this leaves a permanent twisting force in the bushes that will both wear them out quickly and effect the stability of the geometry (so it probably won't stay as it was set).
Just a thought?
With regards to cheap tyres, I would avoid Chinese branded tyres, so Goodride, Happy Gallop, Riding Along The Road etc but I would be happy using Korean brands, they seem exceptionally good even compared to big brand tyres.
Just a thought?
With regards to cheap tyres, I would avoid Chinese branded tyres, so Goodride, Happy Gallop, Riding Along The Road etc but I would be happy using Korean brands, they seem exceptionally good even compared to big brand tyres.
It's never the bushes that fail, there is a specific way these have to be bolted up so as not to tear the bushes (similar to your detailed advise). It's always been the ball joints (is quite common on the main control arm apparently), which is why we have now gone for meyle HD arms where they have modified the design of the ball joint so as to make it last longer.
I've settled on debica budgets/mid range will see how get on. They are owned by Goodyear, made in Poland, and they make there own tyres aswell as tyres for members of the Goodyear group, but they also sell rebadged versions of those within the Goodyear group.
So in terms of quality I'm hoping it's going to be ok, Iv e done due diligence, but there is always that doubt in the back of my mind.
I just wondered what others experience was of budget tyres, but seems people don't use budgets on here lol.
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I'll use mid range tyres, but never budgets. Its the only part of the car actually in contact with the road and when you look at the wet braking results in tyre tests there is a significant difference between premium and mid range tyres and then a massive difference between mid range and budget.
In fairness, whilst you are getting down to the chords at the edges, you've only got 2.5mm of tread left in the rest of the tyre so the rest of the tyre is well worn. I assume both are wearing in the same way, so i expect its just some quirk of the geometry settings that audi use or the 4wd system.
That 4 wheel alignment place you've linked to look like they know what they're doing.
In fairness, whilst you are getting down to the chords at the edges, you've only got 2.5mm of tread left in the rest of the tyre so the rest of the tyre is well worn. I assume both are wearing in the same way, so i expect its just some quirk of the geometry settings that audi use or the 4wd system.
That 4 wheel alignment place you've linked to look like they know what they're doing.
I did once buy a car which had a couple of "Landsail" tyres on it. Strewth!!! First time I drove it in the wet, I realised where they got the idea for the name! They were DIRE! That doesn't mean I'm against budget tyres in general, but there's an element of luck involved. I've got some "Sumitomo" tyres on one car at present and they're "ok". Not great, but "ok". The tyre place told me they were the parent company of Falken and subcontractor to Dunlop. No idea whether that's true though.
Lemfoerder are an excellent, long-establish and well-respected brand. Indeed, when working for a previous car manufacturer, I used their stuff as OE. But...
...I have a mate who is a metallurgist and he used to work for QH many years ago. They also supplied major manufacturers as original equipment, but the story is a bit more nuanced than that. The major manufacturer had a specification for the parts. So, for example, a balljoint. They would specify a grade of material and Rockwell hardness for the ball stud, a maximum machining surface roughness, the precise grade and composition of the plastic liner that the ball moved in, the tolerances of all the mating parts, the grade of the rubber boot, etc. QH could make those parts to those specifications - no problem. However, in any mass-production environment, you will get rejects that fall just outside of those tolerances. These wouldn't necessarily be scrapped. If only just outside the manufacturer's tolerances for new build, they could still be assembled and put into the manufacturer's "genuine replacement parts" boxes, because they still met the (slightly more generous) specification for those. a bit further outside spec. again, and they could be put in a QH aftermarket box and sold as a QH replacement. A bit further still outside the tolerances and specifications, and they'd be sold to another parts manufacturer, lower down the food chain, who sold them in some other brand of box. Of course, you did also get the ones that just failed on all counts and were scrapped. This is quite common in car parts manufacturing, so just because the parts are made by the same company, it doesn't ALWAYS follow that they are the same quality as original fitment at manufacture.
Also, manufacturers learn and evolve. My dad can remember Yokohama tyres when they first started to appear on these shores as "budget" tyres. He was a motorcyclist back then, and they quickly earned an awful reputation. Gradually though, Yokohama upped their game to become the well-respected manufacturer they are today. Some of today's "no-name" tyres will probably become well-established. Others will vanish (deservedly!) into obscurity.
The Hunter kit is excellent (we use it at work) but they're only as good as the monkey operating them. They try to de-skill the task to the greatest extent possible, but nothing's idiot-proof! The place you posted the link to, can certainly "talk the talk", and I'd take it as a good sign that they do motorsport stuff. Asking them to explain things is (I find) usually a good way of getting confidence in the place. If they're reluctant to, or try to fob you off with obvious bullsh1t, they probably don't know what they're doing. If it was me, I think I'd either go for some part-worns, or some budget tyres until I was confident that they were wearing more evenly.
Yeah back in the day QH had a pretty terrible reputation though, (still Do by all accounts).
Anyhoo, I just found the print outs from the last time we had the 4 wheel alignment done when the tyres were first installed,
It has had a couple of control arms on the driver's side since though so it may be it was never tracked correctly after this even though it drive straight..
Anyhoo, I just found the print outs from the last time we had the 4 wheel alignment done when the tyres were first installed,
It has had a couple of control arms on the driver's side since though so it may be it was never tracked correctly after this even though it drive straight..
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There is an awful lot of commonality of minor parts like balljoints, suspension, even engine parts, which fit multiple manufacturers models.
Maybe, but the point is that the same manufacturer can make parts of different qualities, depending on the application. Nobody likes paying genuine dealer parts prices, so it creates a gap in the market for cheaper stuff.
I can't see much wrong there. Even before the adjustment. All they did was tweak the front toe setting slightly. I can't see anything there that would cause such a dramatic difference in wear across the width of the tyre. OK, I don't know what the settings for the Audi SHOULD be, but none of them look wildly out.
They can drive straight with the tracking badly out. Some manufacturers like to run a bit of toe-out because it makes the car turn-in a bit more aggressively. Handy as a "fudge" if you have a nose-heavy car that understeers a bit more than you'd like. I'd be interested to see your "before" and "after" printouts this time?
I have often gone for budget tyres as I tend to drive for fuel economy and not as fast as possible.
When I worked in the Middle East it was interesting to see that they had a lot of tyre brands that I had never heard of. I tried some and found most were quite good.
When I finished my contract I drove back to the UK as many other English ex-pats did. Quite good experience with a few interesting incidents.
Now with new selling sources like Ebay, I usually buy slightly used best brands with most of the tread left. Several motor trade have told me that is often a good tactic.
When I worked in the Middle East it was interesting to see that they had a lot of tyre brands that I had never heard of. I tried some and found most were quite good.
When I finished my contract I drove back to the UK as many other English ex-pats did. Quite good experience with a few interesting incidents.
Now with new selling sources like Ebay, I usually buy slightly used best brands with most of the tread left. Several motor trade have told me that is often a good tactic.
Unfortunately I do exactly the opposite, so good tyres are paramount for me.
Again, Michelin Cross Climate extra load get my vote, no matter the cost.
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