BX/Xantia (And possibly C5??) handbrake.

[securespark]

This is a really interesting topic, as the manufacturer refuses to accept that their cars have a major design flaw, when they quite clearly do.

Let me explain. I have owned two Citroens, one an 88F BX and the other a 96P Xantia, both diesels.

Both have let me down with the handbrake mechanism becoming loose, and the car rolling.

The handbrake on these motors acts on the front wheels (like the old 'Suds) and it has a flaw in the design where the components contract as they cool, releasing the grip of the brake.

I was lucky with the BX, it only rolled a few feet (albeit into the middle of the road, but noone "encountered" it!! But the Xantia was a bit more dramatic.

I was visiting one of my missus' family friends in Coulsden, and she lived on a hill. So I parked up, yanked on the handbrake (forgetting my two other usual measures - turning the wheel to the kerb and leaving it in reverse) and we went in. We said hello and sat down. We had been talking a good few minutes when the daughter said "what car have you come in?". The white one we said. "What? That one rolling past the window?"

OH SH*T!!!

So it was, and it rolled all the way down the hill and hit a Polo head on. Miraculously, no one was hurt (if the Polo hadn't stopped it, it would have gone down the hill to the bottom (90 degree lh bend) and smashed through a hedge into a garden full of kids........) Also miraculously, apart from a small scratch on the bumper, the Xantia was unscathed.

Now, my missus insists I left the handbrake loosly applied. I said not. The first thing I did when I reached the car was to check the handbrake. It was as tight as I could apply it. And if I did forget to put the 'brake on, why did it take so long before it began rolling? Just enough time to let the metal cool down, I reckon!

I insisted to Citroen and my insurance co. that the design is flawed. Will they listen? You tell me!!

I aked Zurich if anyone else had had a similar accident in a Citroen, but they said this was their first encounter, as did my garage. Is this a cover up? All the ins co was interested in was whether the car had been REGULARLY SERVICED and was the HB adjusted last visit? It was.

Anyone else suffered this fate?

 

[david and julie]

Securespark.....you are right about these handbrakes being suspect.

I used to be a partner in a breakdown recovery firm. A common trick for transporter drivers is to untie the car, then sit in and roll down the truck into a parking spot. A lot easier than pushing and shoving! The trouble with Citroens is they were rolling off before you could get in! The only thing that saved me one day,with a BX, was the towbar jamming in the ground because of flat suspension.

You have also hit the nail right on the head regarding contraction. Discs contract as they cool reducing the braking effect, whereas a contracting drum does the opposite.

This is probably the reason many cars with all round discs(simpler for ABS) have a seperate disc/drum handbrake set up.

 

[securespark]

As I type this I am printing off copy for my Julie to read, then maybe (it's a long shot) she will believe me that I put the handbrake on correctly. Don't think she thinks I ever did to this day....

Thanks for the ammo!!!!

 

[AdamW]

This is probably the reason many cars with all round discs(simpler for ABS)

I had wondered about this. There isn't really any need for most cars to have rear discs. Reason being (as anyone who rides bikes will instintively know), most of the braking is done by the front wheels. Only high-performance cars (by which I mean cars that will do 150+, not the Novas and Saxos with bodykits that spend their short lives mostly above 6000rpm in my home town! ) and very heavy cars really need them in order to be able to balance the whacking big discs on the front.

I had assumed it was something for the salesmen to point at: "look, it's got all round discs, must be a good car!".

So, makes ABS easier. That figures, drums probably don't respond quite as quickly as discs so ABS is less effective on them.

 

[david and julie]

Securespark.....Citroens were nothing compared to the older RR. Their handbrake is actually like a small footbrake and they NEVER worked properly! Plus the footbrake was a power brake which worked off the engine. I can remember one which we collected in Macclesfield ,non runner, pushed it out of a garage with me in the car and it started rolling down a (luckily) shallow slope, pushed the hand(foot)brake, nothing, pumping foot brake, F*** all. tried to get it in gear,no chance with an auto,
the (slightly smellier!) RR ended up going through a waneylap fence! onto a lawn!!!

Happy Days

 

[david and julie]

Adam...Yes they have disc's for the ABS and the traction control. I think it is more to do with a sensor "seeing" a rotating part than response times.

 

[pipme]

Generally all disc setup has independant 4 wheel ABS, whereas rear drums, generally, act as axle set .. ie both rears treated as one.
No doubt the use of discs all round is partly the result of sharing platforms ....
In my limited experience with ABS the 'sensing' takes place in the hub unit / carrier, rotor in hub (sprocket like), sensor in hub carrier.

P

 

[AdamW]

On my Vauxhall Astra, the hub is a sealed unit, so you can't replace the bearings. It incorporates a sensor which is used both for ABS and for the speedo. Found this out when I had to replace one. With the sensor disconnected the speedo doesn't work!

 

[securespark]

see here for handbrake story. Seems there is a partial remedy to the problem. If you drive an affected Citroen, it might be worth talking to your local dealer.

http://www.ukcar.com/road_tests/citroen/xantia/xantiacomments.htm

 

[pipme]

There must have been a 're-call' on those vehicles ? How did they achieve 'type approval'. 'nother rip off !

If someone buys second hand ... knows nothing about the make or model, just buys a car .. privately (previous owner(s) not heeded recall). It rolls away whilst parked, kills someone, cools down .. handbrake now ok ? The perfect murder ?
Where does resposibility lie ? Owner I guess ... wonder how Insurance Co looks at this situation ? ... A can of frogs !!

What ever is going on .. the vehicles in question should be off the road .. pronto !!
P

 

[securespark]

I can tell you exactly how the insurance co. looked at the case.

Did the garage service the car regularly? Yes.

Did they adjust handbrake at last interval? Yes.

Blame human error.

Never mind the bad design, has it or has it not been the subject of a recall etc.....

Every used car my family buys goes back to the dealer for checks on recalls, ie have there been any? And if so, has the remedial work been carried out and stamped in the service book? If it is not stamped in service book, I take it to mean it has not been carried out.

One of my cars had a recall(before I bought it), can't remember which one...

But the book was not stamped as saying the work had been done, so I went to the local dealer and insisted that the book be stamped to say the remedial work was OK.

He refused, saying I didn't do the work, so I can't sign for it. Fair enough, I said, then replace the part and stamp the book for me.

He refused. One call to customer services later, and the part was replaced.

 

[pipme]

I bet the dealers at recall just removed 'filed off' several of the initial serrations or teeth fom the handbrake ratchet !! Thus ensuring hanbrake pulled on tightly each application.

P

 

[securespark]

According to the website I posted here, that's EXACTLY what happened!

 

[pipme]

I admire the logic of the measure taken (been done in the past !!), it tends to force the driver to apply the handbrake more firmly.
Not a satisfactory final solution though.
Would appear that some sort of compliance or flexibility in the connection system could be the answer.
A very crude, but simple example, could be a real powerful spring as a joining link in a two part brake cable.

Pivoted lever
this end ========///////////========= off

................... ========/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /========= On

When 'on' the 'spring' (or sprung steel pivoted lever) would extend due to the pad contacting disc and tension in the cable, as disc contracts (just a tiny amount) the spring would contract slightly and the pressure also slightly reduce pad to disc, but not release.
But then, there remains the requirement for the hand lever to be moved firmly on.
P

 

[securespark]

An even easier solution: not having the handbrake act on a disc!

Why make problems for yourself?

(Correction: In Citroen's case, why make problems for your customers?)