Can I build a bigger fence?

[shaunaustin]

Hi everyone,

I've got a small dispute with my next door neighbour. At the moment a concrete wall separates our rear gardens. The wall is 97cm high (a little over 3ft). I'd like to replace it for a few reasons:

1. It leans quite significantly. I'm pretty sure it has got worse over the last few years (although I couldn't swear to it). Structurally it seems pretty sound i.e. doesn't seem like it's about to fall down.

2. My neighbour has a green house - I have a 5 year old who loves football. It's inevitable that at some point the greenhouse will be damaged.

3. The wall is very unsightly.

4. It would be nice to have more privacy on occasion, although we have always got on well with them to date.

My neighbour is refusing to allow me to replace the wall with either a taller brick/concrete wall or a fence. He claims this will spoil his view which is total rubbish as the only thing he would be able to see less of is our garden.

Questions -

If the wall is judged unsafe by an independent expert then I would assume that means I can insist on it's replacement, or that it is made safe. Is that correct?

As an alternative I could leave the existing wall and install a fence in front of it on my side (obviously). I believe I would be entitled to put up a fence up to 2 meters high without planning permission. Is that correct?

It's noteworthy that because we live on a hill the lie of the land means that my garden is actually about a foot below the bottom of the wall. Therefore if I put up a 2 meter fence then it would only overlook my neighbours property by 1.7metres (2 meters - 1 foot). Could I therefore bring it up to a total hight of 2.3 metres?

Hope that makes sense. I know the planning office is probably the right place for these questions but people on this site have really helped me out before so fingers crossed

 

[Deleted2797112]

Who does the wall belong to - you / him / shared?

If it's his or shared, you can't insist it's replaced. You can make him aware of your concern but he's not obliged to do anything about it. You say it seems sound but think an expert will condemn it?

You can build to 2m without planning measured from your natural ground level.

 

[shaunaustin]

I'm pretty sure it's shared ownership but will double check my deeds. If it was condemned by an expert that would I be able to insist on it's replacement on safety grounds? I would assume so.

I actually think it would be deemed safe as although it's leaning quite badly there isn't any movement if I stress it.

Seems like the only solution will be a change of heart on his part, or I build a 2 meter fence in front of it.

Thanks for your help.

 

[piratebaz]

Is it possibly the cost that's putting your neighbour off? If your willing to put a fence up and pick up the cost maybe that will sway him in your favour.

Failing that I'd just build a fence. If your neighbour wants to make life difficult then let him get on with it. Personally I'd speak to local council regarding heights and where you can/can't build etc so you know you are doing everything right. Get everything in writing from the council too.

Fingers crossed its all resolved. I've always been lucky with neighbours but know some folks who have had a total mare of a time.

Keep us posted and good luck

 

[shaunaustin]

We've not even spoken about cost and I don't sense that it's the problem. Since he really doesn't want it done and I do, I think it's only fair that I pick up the cost.

He says he doesn't want a fence because it will rattle in the wind. I don't quite buy this as he's got a wooden fence on the other side of the garden, which he seems to cope with. If I agreed to replace it with a concrete or stone wall of the same hight, then he would probably agree, but then there would be no point doing it from my point of view since we don't get the benefits (i.e. increased privacy and extra protection against the ball hitting his green house).

It's so frustrating because I'm trying to protect his property from accidental damage by doing this. I made it clear that if he refuses to let me do it then I won't accept liability if we damage the greenhouse. Legally I probably can't do this. He's said that he's got a right to insist that we don't play football in the back and instead go to the park, which is ridiculous.

We've always got on brilliantly (he gives us plants, I help him with his techy stuff) and it guts me that he's reacted like this. Ultimately I think the main problem he has against the bigger fence is that he and his wife will feel more cut-off as they like talking to us when we're in the back. We enjoy it too, but it can get a bit much.

Anyway, it might be worth it to just drop the whole thing. These things have a habbit of escalating and it may be easier to just drop the idea.....or move

Cheers

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Get your boy to hoof it straight into the greenhouse and out the other side! When he's in there! Maybe that would soften him up?

 

[piratebaz]

That's a real shame as he sounds like a decent bloke. But at the end of the day you want privacy and protection from your boy smashing his greenhouse so go for it I say. Build the fence and live your life. Shame you may lose him as a nice enough neighbour but you can't have Someone dictate to you what you can and can't do in your own garden.

Personally I'd make it very clear that his lack of cooperation has led to a 2m fence being legally put in place. And as for the comment of not playing football in your own garden, kudos for keeping your cool and not smashing up his greenhouse yourself!!!

 

[Deleted2797112]

Double fencing is never a good idea. You put your fence up, he takes down the leaning wall and gains a foot or so of garden. You'll find it extremely difficult to claim back after the event.

 

[skotl]

Double fencing is never a good idea. You put your fence up, he takes down the leaning wall and gains a foot or so of garden. You'll find it extremely difficult to claim back after the event.

Firstly, what do you suggest as an alternative approach?

More importantly, your suggestion has no grounding in law; the boundary is the boundary and, long negative prescription or a mutually agreed boundary change aside, nothing is going to change that.

What the OP suggests seems the easiest way round a tricky problem to me.

 

[Deleted2797112]

Double fencing is never a good idea. You put your fence up, he takes down the leaning wall and gains a foot or so of garden. You'll find it extremely difficult to claim back after the event.

Firstly, what do you suggest as an alternative approach?

More importantly, your suggestion has no grounding in law; the boundary is the boundary and, long negative prescription or a mutually agreed boundary change aside, nothing is going to change that.

What the OP suggests seems the easiest way round a tricky problem to me.

The OP isn't in Scotland.

The Land Registry Practice Guide 40, Supplement 3 explains the General Boundary rule.

I would suggest that the OP tries to find a compromise solution, for more than just the double boundary feature issue. If the fence goes up against the neighbour's wishes, there is a dispute that has to be declared in the event that either party wishes to sell their property with the possible detrimental effect on saleability/price. That is also best avoided.

I'm not sure that the OP has got to the bottom of what the neighbour's concern really is. If that can be understood, then maybe there is a compromise and good relations restored.

 

[wrathkeg]

you say he has a greenhouse. is it possible that he doesn't want the taller fence as it might reduce the light getting into his greenhouse? just a thought.

you might try discussing with him the sort of fence you have planned. he might be less resistant if he knew more about your plans especially if you were willing to do something more open than solid panels (e.g. palings). since he mentioned the possibility of rattling, maybe he envisages solid panels in concrete posts and that might be what he doesn't like. not that it is really his choice, but some discussion with him about the design might help you get along with one another which you seem keen to do.

 

[shaunaustin]

Double fencing is never a good idea. You put your fence up, he takes down the leaning wall and gains a foot or so of garden. You'll find it extremely difficult to claim back after the event.

Firstly, what do you suggest as an alternative approach?

More importantly, your suggestion has no grounding in law; the boundary is the boundary and, long negative prescription or a mutually agreed boundary change aside, nothing is going to change that.

What the OP suggests seems the easiest way round a tricky problem to me.

The OP isn't in Scotland.

The Land Registry Practice Guide 40, Supplement 3 explains the General Boundary rule.

I would suggest that the OP tries to find a compromise solution, for more than just the double boundary feature issue. If the fence goes up against the neighbour's wishes, there is a dispute that has to be declared in the event that either party wishes to sell their property with the possible detrimental effect on saleability/price. That is also best avoided.

I'm not sure that the OP has got to the bottom of what the neighbour's concern really is. If that can be understood, then maybe there is a compromise and good relations restored.

If the second fence goes up on my side, and is legal, then surely this wouldn't constitute a 'dispute' in legal terms, and therefore wouldn't need to be declared in the event of a house sale. Is this not correct?

There's a good chance that I will look to sell my home in the next few years. I had considered that erecting a bigger fence would increase privacy and help sell the house, however this is by no means the primary reason.

I may just end up leaving it. I don't relish the prospect of getting into a legal dispute. Plus my neighbour is a pensioner who's had heart problems and I don't want to cause him any stress, even if he is being totally obtuse! We'll continue playing football and he can continue repairing the glass in his greenhouse

Thanks all for your advice.

 

[shaunaustin]

you say he has a greenhouse. is it possible that he doesn't want the taller fence as it might reduce the light getting into his greenhouse? just a thought.

you might try discussing with him the sort of fence you have planned. he might be less resistant if he knew more about your plans especially if you were willing to do something more open than solid panels (e.g. palings). since he mentioned the possibility of rattling, maybe he envisages solid panels in concrete posts and that might be what he doesn't like. not that it is really his choice, but some discussion with him about the design might help you get along with one another which you seem keen to do.

Funnily enough that was the reason I expected but probably the only one he didn't give. During our discussion he implied he would be willing to replace the existing wall with a similar stone wall, of the same height. I think the height problem is the key - he's a very nosey person and likes to be able to see what's going on, even in other peoples gardens. Plus I think him and his wife are pretty lonely and they like being able to easily strike up a conversation with us. Like I've said previously, we don't mind this but it can be a bit much especially when we've got friends round. Plus I want to protect myself and him from the certainty of my son breaking his greenhouse.

It's a difficult situation all round.

 

[wrathkeg]

tell him you'll put a gate in the fence

 

[shaunaustin]

...or perhaps install a lifting mechanism where we can lower or heighten it, depending on our mood.