Can I get a single light switch with a neon light??

[ban-all-sheds]

If one uses Lin and Lout for the SP switching, all one has to do is add a link between Nout and Lin to get the desired ‘reverse neon’ functionality (assuming neon is connected between Lout and Nout).

And what's the current path for the neon then?

 

[JohnW2]

If one uses Lin and Lout for the SP switching, all one has to do is add a link between Nout and Lin to get the desired ‘reverse neon’ functionality (assuming neon is connected between Lout and Nout).

And what's the current path for the neon then?

When switch (and light) is off ....

L feed > Lout terminal > neon > Nout terminal > link > Lin terminal > load > neutral

(had I been giving 'full instructions', I would have indicated that the L feed has to go to Lout) There could, of course, possibly be issues if the lamp were something more complicated than an incandescent one, but that would have been discussed had the OP been interested in the idea.

Kind Regards, John

 

[deadshort]

Have you considered a pir ?

Kind regards,

Deadshort

 

[ban-all-sheds]

There could, of course, possibly be issues if the lamp were something more complicated than an incandescent one

 

[JohnW2]

There could, of course, possibly be issues if the lamp were something more complicated than an incandescent one

... but quite possibly not - and, in any event, it's exactly the same potential issue as would exist with the 'neon surrounds' that others were suggesting (and, even if there were 'an issue', quite probably not one that a capacitor across the lamp wouldn't cure).

Do I take it from your silence on the matter that, those potential issues apart, you are content with the current path for the neon which I indicated?

Kind Regards, John

 

[dummer]

Have you considered a pir ?

Kind regards,

Deadshort

No, but a good idea, and one which I will think about. The only possible problem might be that there are two switches for the garage light. One in the kitchen and one by the up and over door at the far end of the garage. They both control the same light. The kitchen one has just three wires - live, neutral and earth. I haven't looked at the other one but I guess it's more involved to make it a two way switch.
If I controlled the light by just the kitchen switch could I put a PIR on that side of the wiring? (Obviously in the garage - not in the kitchen!!).

 

[JohnW2]

No, but a good idea, and one which I will think about. The only possible problem might be that there are two switches for the garage light. One in the kitchen and one by the up and over door at the far end of the garage. They both control the same light. The kitchen one has just three wires - live, neutral and earth. I haven't looked at the other one but I guess it's more involved to make it a two way switch.

That's a rather surprising arrangement - with only T+E cable at the kitchen switch, you can't (shouldn't!) have proper 'two way switching' (unless someone has used the earth as a live conductor - which would be very naughty and potentially dangerous!). I would guess that with your present arrangement, the two switches are probably just in parallel - so that if you switch the light on with one of the other switches, you have to switch it off with the same switch - is that the case?

What, if anything, is the earth wire connected to at the kitchen switch?

Another, potentially more serious, issue with a PIR arises if you use your garage at least partially as a workshop. If the light were to suddenly go out (due to the timed on-period of the PIR coming to its end) whilst you were doing something with tools, then there clearly could be a danger.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

... but quite possibly not - and, in any event, it's exactly the same potential issue as would exist with the 'neon surrounds' that others were suggesting (and, even if there were 'an issue', quite probably not one that a capacitor across the lamp wouldn't cure).

So you implement a solution which causes a problem and then have to do yet more things to cure the problem you have created.

Do I take it from your silence on the matter that, those potential issues apart, you are content with the current path for the neon which I indicated?

That issue apart, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

 

[dummer]

No, but a good idea, and one which I will think about. The only possible problem might be that there are two switches for the garage light. One in the kitchen and one by the up and over door at the far end of the garage. They both control the same light. The kitchen one has just three wires - live, neutral and earth. I haven't looked at the other one but I guess it's more involved to make it a two way switch.

That's a rather surprising arrangement - with only T+E cable at the kitchen switch, you can't (shouldn't!) have proper 'two way switching' (unless someone has used the earth as a live conductor - which would be very naughty and potentially dangerous!). I would guess that with your present arrangement, the two switches are probably just in parallel - so that if you switch the light on with one of the other switches, you have to switch it off with the same switch - is that the case?


What, if anything, is the earth wire connected to at the kitchen switch?

Another, potentially more serious, issue with a PIR arises if you use your garage at least partially as a workshop. If the light were to suddenly go out (due to the timed on-period of the PIR coming to its end) whilst you were doing something with tools, then there clearly could be a danger.

Kind Regards, John

Thanks John
The two switches do work as proper two way switching - I can switch the light on or off from both switches. But...........I have just looked at the kitchen switch and tested the three wires. When the light is off, the only wire showing that it is live is the brown, live wire. Neither the blue nor the (so called) earth show any power. BUT when I switch the light on, all three wires become live! Is that a little worrying!?
I think I'll give up the idea of neon or PIR, but I just need to know if things are safe now. I have lived in the house for twenty years and not had a problem so far, although I have never tinkered with the garage light!
By the way, the kitchen switch was obviously an afterthought as it is run in three core flex.
Thanks.

 

[JohnW2]

... but quite possibly not - and, in any event, it's exactly the same potential issue as would exist with the 'neon surrounds' that others were suggesting (and, even if there were 'an issue', quite probably not one that a capacitor across the lamp wouldn't cure).

So you implement a solution which causes a problem and then have to do yet more things to cure the problem you have created.

There are many '2-wire' things around (like both the masters and illuminated slaves of the electronic time-lag switches we were discussing on Friday, not to mention many dimmers) which rely on a path to neutral through a lighting load, either to power electronics or to operate a neon - and it seems that they usually work satisfactorily (both the device and the lamp) with non-incandescent lamps and that, even if there are 'problems', they are usually/often easily addressed.

If one wants to avoid the possibility of such problems, one obviously has to use devices with proper neutral feeds and install cables with enough conductors - which is not necessarily an attractive proposition in an existing installation. It therefore may well be considered appropriate to at least try the 2-wire option in such circumstances.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Thanks John ... The two switches do work as proper two way switching - I can switch the light on or off from both switches. But...........I have just looked at the kitchen switch and tested the three wires. When the light is off, the only wire showing that it is live is the brown, live wire. Neither the blue nor the (so called) earth show any power. BUT when I switch the light on, all three wires become live! Is that a little worrying!?...

Potentially extremely worrying, but the one saving grace is....

By the way, the kitchen switch was obviously an afterthought as it is run in three core flex.

.. which at least means that the earth being used as a live conductor is an insulated one, not the bare copper conductor it would be in T+E cable! Such use of an earth conductor as a live one is seriously frowned upon, and, at the very least, is on the borderline of being acceptable to regulations. At the very least, that green/yellow 'earth' should have a bit of brown sleeving put over it, to indicate that it is live (at both ends).

Do I take it that neither the switch in the kitchen or garage is metal? If they were metal, you'd have an even more dangerous situation on your hands.

We had all assumed that, since there appeared to be only two live conductors, this was not a 2-way switching situation. Now that we know that it is 2-way switching, and attempts to get a neon in the kitchen to work would be much more complicated (if possible at all) - and most of what has already been suggested would probably not work. Even the red paint idea won't help you if it is 2-way switching.

I think I'll give up the idea of neon or PIR, but I just need to know if things are safe now. I have lived in the house for twenty years and not had a problem so far, although I have never tinkered with the garage light!

That makes sense.

Kind Regards, John

 

[dummer]

No, neither one is metal thankfully!

I'll just keep an eye on the switch and try to remember which switch was the last one used!

Thanks for the help.

 

[JohnW2]

No, neither one is metal thankfully!

That's at least something!

I'll just keep an eye on the switch and try to remember which switch was the last one used!

We can now understand that your difficulty is greater than we thought - since, with two-way switching, just looking at the switch in the kitchen does not indicate whether the garage light is on or off (hence the red poaint idea wouldn't work!)!

I had a similar issue with my cellar - two-way switching, and people were always leaving the cellar lights on 'for days'. In the end, I wired a small light in the kitchen (just above the door to the cellar stairs) to the cellar lighting circuit - so that when the cellar lights were on, there was an 'unmissable' light on in the kitchen above the cellar door!

Kind Regards, John

 

[deadshort]

Very similar to installing a neon

DS

 

[JohnW2]

Very similar to installing a neon

I tried that first, but the same people who forgot to turn off the cellar lights usually just didn't notice the neon, either. When I changed it to a 15W pygmy bulb, they had little choice but to notice it, particularly when they turned off the main kitchen lights!

Kind Regards, John