Canal-side Subsidence

[TheFew]

A few more pictures...

1) the bottom of the steps. As you can see, they are mostly built on moist soil...

2) The hole is indeed full of water..

3) Essentially there is no soil now between the hole and the "corrugated boards" that form the mooring point.

 

[bourbon]

Phone canal and rivers trust it's their problem, I'll see if I can get a number for you

 

[TheFew]

Phone canal and rivers trust it's their problem, I'll see if I can get a number for you

Thanks, i have emailed them.

 

[KenGMac]

TheFew, Hi again.

As my original post to you I advised Caution???

My take on the situation is simple, you rent the land, in such a case the owner must complete any and all repairs. If we consider matters? why should you expend funds if you in the long run receive no benefit, same scenario exists if you were to be renting a property that suffered a water leak you as a tenant do not need to undertake a repair, the Landlord does.

if you instruct or institute any repair then you personally will be responsible for its efficacy for all time, what if it fails next year???

If you simply pour in Concrete, or fill this emerging hole with ballast / fill or indeed any other Stuff??

If you proceed to repair, and YOUR repair subsequently fails then guess what YOU, and only YOU are going to be held responsible for any and all subsequent damage occurring?

It is my opinion that unless the Rental Agreement states unequivacolably that you are responsible for repairs on an area of ground you do not own then the OWNER must specify the precise and exact repairs he regards as being needed, and in what time scale

Ken

 

[WabbitPoo]

Are your posts created using Google Translate, KenGMac? I find them very hard to read......

 

[jeds]

Canal maintenance is mostly done by an army of volunteers. Why not volunteer and repair the hole yourself. Whatever you do don't let anybody talk you into filling it with concrete. The volunteer will break the surface down and top with a self binding aggregate. It'll take you half an hour and cost ten quid.

 

[WabbitPoo]

I can't understand how, when the OP says he can see running water in the hole, that shoving anything loose in will help.....maybe I'm being even thicker than normal.

It looks and sounds like the bank itself has eroded from the bottom up and will need some proper shoring up somehow and is surely something B Waterways needs to be approached about

 

[KenGMac]

I agree with Wabbit Poo,

If water is visible in the base of the hole then there is a breach in the Canal Wall, which can be at times simply hand packed, and rammed Clay, Concrete is not the answer here, a full investigation is required by someone or some organisation, such as the Canal owner or operator.

Under no circumstances should the OP undertake any sort of a repair whatsoever, Why? because if the repair fails, drastically, then the defective repair may lead to Litigation as regards a defective repair.

I am quite willing to admit that I have very limited knowledge of Canal Bank Repair [any one else on the board with direct informed knowledge of such repairs?] so to attain an effective repair informed opinion should be sought by the OP

Historically I have attended Insurance Claims at several flood claims where a breach of the Canal bank flooded dozens of down hill properties. the point of this sentence is that, if the Insurers can prove that the attempted repair by the OP was defective the OP who undertaken the repair could? a big Could? be held liable for a defective, inappropriate, repair?

Please consider the potential Liability issues here? all about a piece of ground that the OP has no title over, the land belongs to someone else? Why should the OP expend funds to repair a bit of property that the OP does not own or indeed ever will own?

Ken

 

[HERTS P&D]

All I can say is that when the OP is near the edge of the canel he should always be wearing a life jacket, whether he is working to fix the problem or just taking more pictures. Safety is number One!

Andy

 

[TheFew]

Well I finally got a visit from the Canal and River Trust. They won't repair the area, but advised me how to do so. The plan is:

- Dig out the existing material/mud along the length of the mooring to just under the water line
- Insert a layer of 75mm to 150mm cleaned stone (rip-wrap). These stones won't be washed away.
- Insert layer of geo-textile (terram of nico span). Insert in a u-shape to protect upward layers from wash.
- Insert layer of type 1 scalpings (small stones/dust).
- Insert another layer of geo-textile.
- Finish off with a top layer (e.g. gravel or the stuff that was dug out).

So there we are. I had better get to work!

 

[theprinceofdarkness]

" Dig out the existing material/mud along the length of the mooring to just under the water line " So you dig down through the mud to 2" lower then the water line, there is still mud. So how is pouring in loose stones going to reinforce the bank? The hole in the canal water proofing could be 3' lower then the water line, so anything higher then this will be saturated. You can't pound the stones down until they settle, because you will break the canal's wall.
I would take further advice.
Frank

 

[TheFew]

" Dig out the existing material/mud along the length of the mooring to just under the water line " So you dig down through the mud to 2" lower then the water line, there is still mud. So how is pouring in loose stones going to reinforce the bank? The hole in the canal water proofing could be 3' lower then the water line, so anything higher then this will be saturated. You can't pound the stones down until they settle, because you will break the canal's wall.
I would take further advice.
Frank

Hi,

Who do yo suggest I seek further advice from? I am not sure who to contact apart from the Canal and River Trust.

Thanks

 

[KenGMac]

TheFew, good evening again.

A few posts ago, it was glaringly obvious that you do not own, but rent a mooring?

OK? suppose you are starting out in your first rented home? would you rip out the bath and Wash Hand Basin Chrome taps to replace them with Gold plated ones? in the full knowledge that in a few weeks / Months/ but certainly Years you will move on from the let and lose your expended funds in the cost of Gold plated taps???

Likewise, If you institute a repair regime, as proposed by the Canal Authority, and it goes seriously wrong? because you have in all good faith acted on information provided by the Canal owner the Canal owner could??? require you to undertake repairs for the [implied] poor workmanship / design if your attempted repair to a bit of property you don NOT own??

You are not responsible at all, under any circumstances for repairs to property that you do not own, and as an aside to even consider the proposed repair you have posted is seriously suspect, how anyone can even suggest you excavate BELOW the water table, in close proximity to that water course defies logic??

Bottom line as far as I can see.

1/. You cannot be held responsible to undertake a repair on property that you do not own.

2/. Only the Canal owner can specify a repair regime.

3/. if you proceed with a repair regime and it fails, you will be held completely PERSONALLY! liable for all costs arising from your actions, as previously posted the repair as advised is at best "Suspect?"

My advise is DO NOTHING! get the Canal Owner to sort things out

Ken.

 

[TheFew]

Hi Ken,


Thanks for your comments. I totally agree with them in the case of a rented house!


In this case however, the Canal Owner (the Canal and River Trust) won’t repair the land under the terms of the contract, as it is specifically excluded. The annual rent is a token rent (£150) and unless I do the work myself the land will be left to its own devices (which in the fullness of time could affect my house – but this may be eons away).


So to me it seems that I have little choice but to follow their repair advice and self-fund the work if I want to continue enjoying that bit of land (safely?).


I have costed the materials and it is going to cost circa £200, so it is not too bad. Plus a few days’ worth of effort.


With regards to digging below the waterline I may have para-phrased that incorrectly. But essentially he told me to dig the area out to the level where the bottom of the hole is (where water is present) and then lay the course of stone (I will use cheap gabion stone 100mm – 225mm) to create a foundation. I will have to try to pack this down into the soil to a degree and may also use some galvanised wire mesh to prevent the stones moving away and some geo-textile to prevent further erosion to the bank behind the stone. This approach does seem to assume however that erosion will only occur at the water’s surface and below the surface that things are peachy!


Looking at the land it does seem that there is some motion over time, with the installed patio and steps no longer being level. So once the lower bank is repaired I will probably have to do some re-terracing of the upper bank.


Along the local stretch of the canal and the tow path, the bank is collapsing in places and they do not seem overly worried about it (presumably their budget is stretched, and they only focus on critical bits).


It is not an ideal situation, but I do not have many options (as far as I can see).


Thanks again


TheFew

 

[WabbitPoo]

I know we can't really see the issue up close, but their advice seems a little iffy to me. You're going to be pouring stuff into the canal.......where it ends up is anyone's guess. Can you not scrap the whole thing and build a new, cantilevered deck? Yes, costly, but you at east know the end result'll be worth it. Just a thought.