Caravans/Motorhomes anybody?

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I've just been doing some testing on a couple of caravans.
Not my field but thought it might be interesting.
But my findings where quite scary, I wont pretend it's my forte and I do believe they are governed by more by a BSEN that I can't get my hands on.
But my findings are as follows.
1, More than One circuit protected by a single breaker,
2, ELV and LV cables being run and grouped together,
3, CU pop riveted, so no means of access.
4, Neon indicator on CU which could not be disconnected because of above
5, All circuits joined by snap on and pull off connectors under beds, in cupboards etc...
6, Cables run in polystyrene
7, A spurred socket wired in speaker wire
8, No means of testing the fridge circuit as the fridge is a fixed appliance and can not be moved.
9, No earth bonding connection to chassis (this is a requirement)
10, Curtains drapes dangerously close to light fittings

Some of the findings prevented me from carry out tests such as IR due neon light in unaccessible CU.

This caravan had been in for service ready for a resale and actually had been bought be someone.
It's my understanding that caravan electrical servicing only include the RCD test and the plug in tester that indicates earth connection and polarity.
They don't do PIRs,
and the people who design and install them should be on the shooting list, in fact I'm going post that.

 

[timtheenchanter]

caravans have only just been introduced in a any detail, but I do alot of caravanning, and have had 3. dont forget the max load is 16A on main sites, but can be lower.

1, this seems to be common on vans, there is only limited space, in my van the sockets are on a 10A, the waterheater, lighting and fridge on a 6A

2, seems to be the case, but there is again only limited space to seperate them.

3, hmm, not seen that, all mine have had the 1/4 turn screws on, so have a few of my friends.

4, thats a safty feature for going into Europe (and occasionally over here) it should be wired N-E so would light on reverse polarity

5, are you sure thats not the ELV?

6, doesnt polystyrene only affect T&E type cables, whereas caravan cables should be flexible.

7 Dodgly DIY is everywhere, if there are more than 3 sockets in a van its a sure sign of an addition, most vans have 2, high end have 3

8. check in the cuboard around it, under the front seating, there should be an FCU (possibly switched) or even a 13A socket somwhere. on very few the lower of the two vents on the outside needs removing to access it, this then needs re-sealing with proper mastic NOT silicone as this reacts with the aluminium.

9. depends on how old the vans are shurely?

10, Ill agree with you on that one, some vans have halogen lighting rather close, thats why ive fitted LED replacements.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

3, yip riveted together, I'm no anfel but it was a bank safe job
4, Screwed my IR test
5, Defo; waterheater, fan master and lights on mains
6, as far as I'm aware it effects cord
7, two sockets plus dodgy one
8, had the van upside down, did consider outside vents but left it and switched at on/off, on fridge
9) pass! not my field but I understand it is now a requirement

 

[RF Lighting]

Why are you testing something when you don't know the regs which apply to it?

Is your professional indemnity insurance policy up to date?

 

[ColJack]

2. ELV and LV together is no problem as long as the ELV is rated to the same voltage as the LV..

6, sure it's polystyrene?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

2. ELV and LV together is no problem as long as the ELV is rated to the same voltage as the LV..

6, sure it's polystyrene?

2, the insulation isn't
6, yes

 

[ColJack]

how do you know the insulation isn't? can you see the rating printed on it somewhere?

definitely white expanded polystyrene and not PIC foam?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Why are you testing something when you don't know the regs which apply to it?

Is your professional indemnity insurance policy up to date?

the caravan/motorhome industry have got in under the radar for the last twenty plus years. but the ever keen H&S people must have realised house building has somewhat come to a standstill in the recent past and now want to p*ss some other industry off.
So they have now decided that it's time for a change regarding serving and offering electrical health checks. I got an invitation to go along on a workshop day. Looking through it with eyes of BS7671 and was very shocked with what a came across!

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

how do you know the insulation isn't? can you see the rating printed on it somewhere?

definitely white expanded polystyrene and not PIC foam?

commentators eye, besides the requirements state they should be separated regardlees of insulation rating, to prevent physical contact.
and either EHD or HD poly being used in side panels.

 

[ericmark]

I've just been doing some testing on a couple of caravans.
Not my field but thought it might be interesting.
But my findings where quite scary, I wont pretend it's my forte and I do believe they are governed by more by a BSEN that I can't get my hands on.
But my findings are as follows.
1, More than One circuit protected by a single breaker,

A MCB is there to protect cable as well as for convenience and with limited room in caravans common to have only 2 MCB's a 6 and 16 amp and as long as there is nothing fed from a supply too large for cable I see no problem after all they are all feed from two RCD's in series.

2, ELV and LV cables being run and grouped together,

So long as ELV cables are of rating for LV this is allowed although not recommended not something which would cause a code to be raised. See 721.528.1

3, CU pop riveted, so no means of access.

This does break the rules and would fail a PIR.

4, Neon indicator on CU which could not be disconnected because of above

Common to have a switch to change polarity with neon to show if connected correct way around for when used in rest of EEC where they use German plugs which can be reversed.

5, All circuits joined by snap on and pull off connectors under beds, in cupboards etc...

Without seeing them can't say if OK or not as of course we use plugs and sockets all over a house so what was voltage rating. See A721.55.6

6, Cables run in polystyrene

This of course can cause problems but will depend what flex is used? Since caravans are wired in flex it may be a type not affected by leaching?

7, A spurred socket wired in speaker wire

Of course a failure. see 721.524.1 min size 1.5mm

8, No means of testing the fridge circuit as the fridge is a fixed appliance and can not be moved.

Although it may be a pain the only Gas fridges are all made by same company I know because I have looked for one which can be used in a boat so you can only have Electrolux so caravan builder does not really have an option. At least all being the same we know how to get into them!

9, No earth bonding connection to chassis (this is a requirement)

You can read 721.411.3.1.2 as well as me is the chassis accessible from within the caravan?

10, Curtains drapes dangerously close to light fittings

Some of the findings prevented me from carry out tests such as IR due neon light in unaccessible CU.

This caravan had been in for service ready for a resale and actually had been bought be someone.
It's my understanding that caravan electrical servicing only include the RCD test and the plug in tester that indicates earth connection and polarity.
They don't do PIRs,
and the people who design and install them should be on the shooting list, in fact I'm going post that.

As to curtains it would be hard as in most cases they are retained top and bottom so since they are fixed so much better you have to make your mind up. However not sure how you would code it? I had the same problem PAT testing where the guard is missing. It is still electrical sound so in theory you can't fail it. Although most places I have worked have failed them.

I have not seen a single caravan which complies with BS7671:2008 most have problems complying with 721.43.1 not seen any with twin pole MCB's to date. Many not wired in flex see 721.521.2. Not seen any instructions in Welsh see 721.537.2.1.1.1. Not seen 12V marked on sockets see 721.55.2.2. The connecting cable often wrong length see 721.55.2.6 I still can not work out why you should not use a cable under 23 meters long sure there is an error there? [25 m (±2 m) length].

A721.514.1 again a problem when sold in Wales as it has also to be in Welsh I expect the same problem in Ulster and Scotland?

A721.55.3.2 Why I ran my caravan for 5 years on a 2.2Ah alarm battery all it was for was to stop the lamps from being damaged by the rectified wave form.

A721.55.5.3 Why I ran mine from a 16V transformer AC with a spring in a box to adjust voltage to keep fridge at even temp. Box buried under Aqua role to stop it freezing so had duel function.

A721.55.9 I think not if you use a three stage stepped battery charger a 40A charger will be normally matched to a 110 to 220AH battery and to use a 400AH battery would likely mean the charger would fail to latch into it's final stage.

Dum Spiro Spero

Keep it up the air is free!

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

2, 721.528.3.5 says you can't
5, like these but three pin http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=98947&C=SO&U=strat15

 

[ericmark]

2, 721.528.3.5 says you can't
5, like these but three pin http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=98947&C=SO&U=strat15[/QUOTE]
721.528.3.5 refers to where gas bottles are kept no where else.
Looking at

I would say they do not comply with IPx4 and since they may not be horizontal at all times I too would question if suitable for low voltage.

I have seen many times where people deal with both low and extra low voltage they have used item on low voltage which are not suitable. Problem is also where. The same connector inside a cabinet which requires a tool for access may be permitted!

One major problem with caravans and boats is they may not have been wired in the UK. And as part of the EEC we can not exclude what would be permitted in another EEC country. This has lead to many a conflict especially with German Schuko sockets. These are not permitted in UK as reversible but are permitted in Europe.

The rules on caravans do seem to consider that both caravan sites and caravans may not follow British rules by requiring RCD protection both on the site and in the caravan.

I know one caravan site which would only allow a hook-up for vans under 5 years old or with a PIR to show it had been tested but sites like this are few and far between. Lets face it hook-up is now even provided for tents.

I think in the main site owners rely on the double RCD to protect there campers and I would think in the main that does work. Major fires that I have seen have normally been due to gas or cooking so I suppose until some one is killed then no real move will be made to ensure the electric system is safe.

And with two RCD's I would think very unlikely that anyone will get killed.

And if you think caravans are bad have a look at boats! Not so bad in salt water but in fresh water faults can be far worse than with any caravan.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

booolux.
I forgot to mention in point two, it was the area that the gas cylinders were/are stored. The cabinet at the front. Sorry everyone, misleading info.

 

[ericmark]

The restriction for gas cupboards is quite new. Where there is a hatch in the side for gas the regulations make sense.
However on the A frame at front many caravans have no floor as such only a aerodynamic cover over the top which also reduces likely theft. In which case it is not compartmentalised so I would consider did not come under new regulations and if it did only a code 4.
Having said that some do have a base and the A frame has been made into a storage compartment in which case then either the bottles or the cables would need moving. In practice this is no easy task and one would need to assess if there is any real risk. If not then code 4 but even if there is risk because it needs two faults for anything to happen still only a code 2.

What is of interest is why does the owner want a PIR? Is it in order to be able to use a caravan site which requires it's production?

I have a problem with this as if one looks a fair grounds the PIR needs doing every time they move as the Ze with change with every site. This will also be true with caravans and I would want to add some note to that effect. However not sure how that would be looked at when the PIR is produced to go on to the site? Likely they would want a clean PIR with no codes.

I know 200 ohms is considered as limit for Ze to be reliable but can't really see how any PIR is valid once the caravan has been unplugged and transported to a new site?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I was invited to a workshop training exercise.
I understand NCC and the site owners are going to recommend that vans come on to sites with valid PIRs.
and renewals every 12 month are likely to be considered.
The prototype PIR test sheet did not include Ze, Zs or PFC
for that reason (every site will be different regards Ze) so the tests are restricted to R2, IR, polarity and RCDs