Cheap consumer units, who uses them, are they permitted?

[ericmark]

I don't have a speedo which works on my e-bike when not using the motor, using the assistance it shows speed, but down hill runs when free wheeling it does not show speed, over taking cars doing 20 MPH is not it seems against the law, there is a law about peddling furiously, but clearly on a down hill stretch one is not peddling so can't use that law.

At 30 MPH it is unlikely I will end up going faster than a car, but at 20 MPH down hill very likely, OK would not do it in the middle of a town or village, but last time I went to North Wales they had put 20 MPH limits where clearly not required, and so one is likely to over take cars.

This thread is not really about speed limits, however if some rule or regulation asks for some unreasonable items, people are likely to ignore the requirements, I have debated this with my son, also an electrician, and as such we are not classed as ordinary persons. So we do not need to fit type tested equipment in our own homes, anything which causes a consumer unit to not be a consumer unit, but just a distribution unit means it does not need notifying, OK this would likely if taken to court result in case law which means it does need notifying, but as far as I am aware there has not been such a court case as yet, and as I have said many times, I don't want to be that test case.

But if an electrician becomes a scheme member he agrees to comply with BS7671, so for him it is law, so he has to comply with the scheme rules, it does not matter if he can say BS7671 has a clause in each edition saying at what date designs need to comply, if his scheme says he needs to install as if new to current edition that is what he must do.

As a non scheme member I can say I designed this in 2003 so I can still install complying with BS7671:2001 and I don't need to inform the LABC as designed before 2004. But scheme members must follow the rules.

I can't say I designed before 2004, as I did not live here then, and I think very few could say the installation was designed before 2004, or even 2022, so in the main people could not use the CU and comply with the rules. As said there will be the odd caravan which does not come under LABC and would be fed from a 30 mA RCD anyway, so there will be the odd install where they can be used and comply with regulations, but very few.

 

[JohnW2]

I don't have a speedo which works on my e-bike when not using the motor, using the assistance it shows speed, but down hill runs when free wheeling it does not show speed, over taking cars doing 20 MPH is not it seems against the law, there is a law about peddling furiously, but clearly on a down hill stretch one is not peddling so can't use that law.

I'm not so sure about that. I think that speed limits, and associated laws, are about the speed at which a vehicle is travelling, regardless of the reason for that speed (which the person in charge of the vehicle is expected to 'control').

Fairly near to where I live, there is a speed camera near the bottom of a fairly steep hill, in a 30 mph area. I don't think it would be an effective defence against a speeding ticket to argue that a vehicle 'had been in neutral' all the way from the top of a hill. I would suggest that the person 'in charge of the vehicle' is expected to take the appropriate steps (using brakes or gearbox/engine) to limit the speed of the vehicle to no more than the prevailing speed limit - and I would have expected that to apply to "e-bikes" just as much as any other vehicle.

I have debated this with my son, also an electrician, and as such we are not classed as ordinary persons. So we do not need to fit type tested equipment in our own homes ...

I think you are perpetuating a (commonly-believed) myth. I am aware of no regulation which prevents the installation of a non-type-tested DB in an installation under the control of 'ordinary persons'. I presume that, like many others, you are referring to the regulation which contains a dispensation that in an installation under the control of an ordinary person', then if it is a type-tested CU, it is permitted to contain devioces with lower breaking capacity than would otherwise be the case. However, I'm aware of nothing which says that it can't be a non-type-tested DB, provided it contains devices of the requires breaking capacity.

, anything which causes a consumer unit to not be a consumer unit, but just a distribution unit means it does not need notifying,

I'm surprised you should say that, given that you are in Wales, since installing/replacing a DB (of any sort) is definitely not one of the few things listed as being non-notifiable in Wales. .

OK this would likely if taken to court result in case law which means it does need notifying .., but as far as I am aware there has not been such a court case as yet ...

... and I very much doubt that there ever will be. However, if there were (in England) one would sincerely hope that a Court, supported by expert witnesses, would conclude that, even though the law speaks only of replacing a "consumer unit" as being notifiable, the intention/spirit clearly was that this would apply to any sort of DB.

... and, as above, the Welsh courts would not have to be bothered with this question, since replacing or installing any sort of DB is notifiable in Wales.

Kind Regards, John

 

[robinbanks]

Well, at least it's metal

Because plastic consumer units were definitely the massive risk the LFB said they were..

 

[robinbanks]

the only way I can attempt to keep to such as speed in a 21st century car

Might be time to invest in a car that will do the "looking at the speedo" part for you..

 

[robinbanks]

some pedestrians treat such limited roads as pedestrianised

Kids have always played in the street; try not to run them over, it's not only illegal, you feel like a proper **** for the rest of your life if you do.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

We have plenty of 20 mph limits around where I live, and I personally find them positively dangerous - the only way I can attempt to keep to such as speed in a 21st century car is by spending 90% of my time looking at the speedometer and 10% of the time looking to see who/what I am about to hit!

You are exaggerating, you don't have to maintain exactly 20, and I find it is quite easy to maintain even in a 140mph car. You do not have to keep looking at your speedo, once you know how the car should sound at around 20mph.

 

[ericmark]

Might be time to invest in a car that will do the "looking at the speedo" part for you..

Both the cars I have with cruse control will not allow you to set it at 20 MPH, at 30 MPH yes, but not 20.

I think that speed limits, and associated laws, are about the speed at which a vehicle is travelling

You have missed out one word, "motor" so "I think that speed limits, and associated laws, are about the speed at which a motor vehicle is travelling" would be correct.

There is a grey area, is an e-bike classed as a motor vehicle, it seems to be classed as a push bike as the motor can only assist up to 16 MPH, although some old e-bikes have a throttle, not permitted on new e-bikes, which is a problem when built into the front wheel, as it takes so time to kick in so cyclists are slow starting at junctions. And with older cyclists this can mean falling off at junctions, with mid engine it's OK the assistance is there straight away, but getting a folding bike with centre motor is rare.

It is also hard getting bikes with motors that are legal to use in the UK, the manufacturer decides what to include as options and if walk assist is not in the options but hand throttle is then user can only select what is available.

Which returns us to first question, should items be offered for sale which in the main should not be used without some warning in the invitation to treat, or advert? Be it an electric scooter or a consumer unit, there will be the odd place they can be used, but if it can only be used where there is no public access it should say so in the advert.

 

[SUNRAY]

Might be time to invest in a car that will do the "looking at the speedo" part for you..

By that I assume you mean cruise control or speed limiting?
I've not yet encountered a vehicle with such that can be set to 20.

 

[SUNRAY]

Kids have always played in the street; try not to run them over, it's not only illegal, you feel like a proper **** for the rest of your life if you do.

They have. however I've found that roads with 20 limits on estates in the summer tend to be full of children playing but those with a 30 limit tend to be children free.
One in particular I'm thinking of has a big grassed roundabout right in the centre with a few trees and climbing frames etc and easily big enough for a football pitch, 40 years back I used to do the PA system for their annual fun day/fete, the speed limit around it it still 30 but the 6 roads approaching it are 20. Negotiating the variuos play themes getting to it is hard work but once there the road and play area tends to be devoid of children.

 

[SUNRAY]

Both the cars I have with cruse control will not allow you to set it at 20 MPH, at 30 MPH yes, but not 20.

You have missed out one word, "motor" so "I think that speed limits, and associated laws, are about the speed at which a motor vehicle is travelling" would be correct.

There is a grey area, is an e-bike classed as a motor vehicle, it seems to be classed as a push bike as the motor can only assist up to 16 MPH, although some old e-bikes have a throttle, not permitted on new e-bikes, which is a problem when built into the front wheel, as it takes so time to kick in so cyclists are slow starting at junctions. And with older cyclists this can mean falling off at junctions, with mid engine it's OK the assistance is there straight away, but getting a folding bike with centre motor is rare.

It is also hard getting bikes with motors that are legal to use in the UK, the manufacturer decides what to include as options and if walk assist is not in the options but hand throttle is then user can only select what is available.

Which returns us to first question, should items be offered for sale which in the main should not be used without some warning in the invitation to treat, or advert? Be it an electric scooter or a consumer unit, there will be the odd place they can be used, but if it can only be used where there is no public access it should say so in the advert.

Down our way they keep having purges on e-scooters, there will be 2 PC's a council official and 2 council workers. The scooter driver will be stopped and asked for their documentation, if none the scooter will be seized and the handle bars chooped off with angle grinder and dumped in a skip. I've known of 4 such events so far.

Basically anything with a motor can be treated as a motor vehicle if the authorities wish to, including EAPC

 

[JohnW2]

Might be time to invest in a car that will do the "looking at the speedo" part for you..

I'm too old to have any interest, inclination or intention to 'invest' in a new-fangled car

Also, as has been said, I don't think I've personally come across cruise control/speed limiting which can be set as low as 20 mph.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

You are exaggerating, you don't have to maintain exactly 20, and I find it is quite easy to maintain even in a 140mph car.

The "90%" was obviously an exaggeration, but I nevertheless feel uncomfortable and unsafe trying to limit my speed to 20 mph. One of the problems of 'old age' is that it takes an appreciable time (maybe a second or more) to re-focus one eyes from very close to distant, during which period may one may have driven over a child or two.

You do not have to keep looking at your speedo, once you know how the car should sound at around 20mph.

To me, in a 21st century car, anything below, say, 'the high 20s' feels/sounds "ridiculously/uncomfortably slow", so that I'm not at all sure that I could reliably distinguish between, say 19 mph and 25 mph.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

By that I assume you mean cruise control or speed limiting?
I've not yet encountered a vehicle with such that can be set to 20.

Mine can be set to cruise, with a bit of care, at 22mph which is a true 20mph.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

To me, in a 21st century car, anything below, say, 'the high 20s' feels/sounds "ridiculously/uncomfortably slow", so that I'm not at all sure that I could reliably distinguish between, say 19 mph and 25 mph.

It doesn't really matter, the intention is just to keep your speed down to a reasonable level, all it takes is a little practice. When towing, I aim to trundle along at 56mph, and I can do this for hundreds of miles, with only a rare glance at the speedo to double check my speed.

 

[JohnW2]

It doesn't really matter, the intention is just to keep your speed down to a reasonable level, all it takes is a little practice.

Whatever the 'intention', many of the 20 mph areas around me are quite rigorously 'policed', so people get tickets even when travelling at what you might regard as "a reasonable level of speed".

When towing, I aim to trundle along at 56mph, and I can do this for hundreds of miles, with only a rare glance at the speedo to double check my speed.

If one is doing it quite a lot ("for hundreds of miles"), and reasonably frequently, then I'm sure that one gets fairly good at judging the speed. However, even though there are an increasing number of 20 mph limits around, they are still relatively rare, and pretty localised so, at least in my case, I do not get enough experience of them to have developed such an 'intuitive skill'.

Kind Regards, John