Choosing a syphon for a toilet cistern

[pelago]

Hi, first post here.

I'm looking for advice on:

1, Whether to buy a syphon or a flapper valve for a toilet cistern. Which is most reliable? Which is most efficient use of water?

2, Dual-flush systems. Whether syphon-based or flapper valve-based, what is available, and how intuitive are they to use, without needing instructions left by the toilet for visitors?

Some more details:

I need to buy a new syphon or flapper valve to replace an old syphon in a cistern for a toilet, close-coupled to the pan if that makes any difference. The reason I want to replace it is because I want one with an internal overflow, which I understand they all have these days, and I'm also interested in dual-flush systems. Although I've done lots of searching, I still need some advice about what to buy.

Firstly, should I buy another syphon or a flapper valve instead? I've read thread //www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=65182 from 2004 but are there any more opinions? I've heard flapper valves can be unreliable and need replacing often, which is not what I want.

I'm quite interested in saving water so am interested in dual-flush systems, where you can do a smaller flush for #1 rather than #2. I've seen flapper valve systems with two buttons which seem nice and intuitive to use, but are there any of these that will fit into the hole left on the front of the cistern by removing the lever? All the ones I've seen need a big hole, usually in the lid of the cistern, and I don't really want to change the cistern or lid.

Alternatively, what about dual-flush systems which can work with a lever, either with a syphon or a flapper valve? I believe they were tried several years ago with flush and release the handle for #1 and a flush and hold the handle for #2, but as people were used to flushing and releasing, they thought that their loo wasn't working and ended up flushing twice, wasting more water.

So I was interested to read about the Dudley Turbo 88 Duoflush http://www.thomasdudley.co.uk/turbo88.asp which works the other way round (short 'normal' flush for #2, long flush for #1). I like the sound of that because it means that people living in the house can learn the system, but visitors can use the system without having to have it explained to them and can just flush as normal and it will at least work for both #1 and #2, even if it does mean using a bit more water. (Of course, I would have to leave the instructions for future residents if I moved out, so that they know they can save water.) Any other similar systems, or is it just the Dudley Turbo 88 that works like that?

I have other questions, but let's stick with those for now. Many thanks in advance.

 

[Rico99]

pelago,

imho the way to go would be to install a "Fluidmaster" flapper valve.

You can get these either with push button conversions or with attached to fit on your existing handle.

The flapper comes with a lifetime guarantee from Fluidmaster but you can get replacements.

Unlike other flapper valve systems theirs are manually adjustable to ensure you get the right flush to get rid of everything, just need to follow the instructions and turn the rubber disk.

Also as I understand it flapper valves are must efficent than syphons as the water gets released all in one go.

To get a really smart system you could also fit their bottom fillve valve for quiet refilling of cistern.

Hope this helps but any questions please feel free to ask.

Cheers
Rico

 

[JohnD]

I agree. I find the Flappers give a strong, quiet flush with no trick or effort.

If the flushing handle is on the side of the cistern, you will need the push-button flush. If it is on the front you can use lever or button.

And yes, the Fluidmaster quiet filling valve replaces the old ball valve and is very quiet. So is a Torbeck.

I am just a householder.

p.s. look out for argumentative plumbers.

 

[pelago]

Thanks for the replies. The flushing handle is on the front of the cistern, so it looks like I could use this with a handle. I like the idea of the nice quiet re-fill too, as I do want a high quality overall system.

Is there a UK site for Fluidmaster? The closest I could find is the 'international' site at http://www.fluidmaster.com/html/intl.html but I don't know if that covers UK. It looks like "Flush Valve (507AK)" is the same as http://www.screwfix.com/prods/50692...ngs/Fluidmaster-Toilet-Flush-Valve-Handle-Kit although it's a shame Screwfix don't mention manufacturer part numbers.

Although that item is adjustable, ideally I would like one that is adjustable on a per-flush basis, depending on how long you hold down the flush handle, as I mentioned above with the Dudley Turbo 88 Duoflush. Do Fluidmaster do one like that, or do anyone else?

 

[JohnD]

the Flappers open when you start the flush, and stay open until they've finished. they do not give short and long flushes.

p.s. it's a very poor website.

 

[pelago]

Can anyone recommend any dual flush systems at all, especially ones that work with a lever? I'm quite taken by the idea, but it doesn't seem to be too popular.

 

[satansbrother]

ideally I would like one that is adjustable on a per-flush basis

JUST HOW ADJUSTABLE DOES ANYONE NEED A FLUSH TO BE??
Would perhaps 3 settings suffice? Eg.-

MIN - for a quick Jimmy
MAX - for regular turn-outs (excluding floaters)
NIAGARA - for mornings after a night on Bass and vindaloo & persistent floaters

Blimey, you really are a perfectionist aren't you!!

 

[pelago]

Is being a perfectionist such a bad thing? Yes, I am trying to achieve a nice result.

Anyway, I thought it was obvious, but I'm talking about being able to do a big flush or a small flush depending on how I use the handle, just like as described at http://www.thomasdudley.co.uk/turbo88.asp . The Fluidmaster is adjustable, but only in the sense that you can take the lid off and adjust the knob, but every flush is the same.

So what I'm asking is, other than the Thomas Dudley Turbo 88 Duoflush, are there are other models people can recommend? And in fact, what do people think of that model?

 

[pelago]

I've been searching around and it seems only the Turbo 88 works this way, so I'll guess I'll get that. If anyone knows differently, or if they hate that particular syphon for some reason, please reply.