Consumer Unit Wiring Question

[Wired1]

The system doesn't allow for <random person> to do the work, and then <random qualified person> to "sign it off".

Can you show me where it says that a skilled person cannot do the work because as I understand it the legislation says wiring may be done by a competent, skilled or instructed person.

A competent person being able to do everything and sign it off under Part P.

A skilled person is commonly assumed to be a qualified electrician, however, I understand that this is not necessarily the case. What is required to be a skilled person, is that you have the necessary technical knowledge or electrical experience to be able to avoid the common dangers posed by electricity.

An instructed person and a skilled person being able to do the work (with certain exceptions most notably touching the incoming mains supply from the electricity companies cable), for a competent person to then sign off the work.

The 4th category being Joe Public who doesn't for any reason fall into the category of skilled or instructed and so can't touch anything.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Can you show me where it says that a skilled person cannot do the work

No - but I can show you that it does not say they may in the legislation:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2010/2214/contents/made

because as I understand it the legislation says wiring may be done by a competent, skilled or instructed person.

You will not find any of those 3 words in the Building Regulations. They don't even refer to "competent person" schemes. The closest you'll get (and the only times you even see the word "competence") are the references to Building Engineering Services Competence Accreditation Limited.

The word "skill" appears only once, in Regulation 32 - "Energy assessors must carry out energy assessments with reasonable care and skill."

A competent person being able to do everything and sign it off under Part P.

The wording in the legislation, in 12(6) is:

A person intending to carry out building work is not required to give a building notice or deposit full plans where the work consists only of work—
(a) described in column 1 of the Table in Schedule 3 if the work is to be carried out by a person described in the corresponding entry in column 2 of that Table;


Oh - and BTW - Part P has absolutely nothing to do with notification, and it applies to any work whatsoever on fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer’s side of the electricity supply meter which operate at low or extra-low voltage and are—
(a) in or attached to a dwelling;
(b) in the common parts of a building serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts;
(c) in a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling; or
(d) in a garden or in or on land associated with a building where the electricity is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling.

It applies equally to notifiable and non-notifiable work, and it applies equally to whoever does the work.

A skilled person is commonly assumed to be a qualified electrician, however, I understand that this is not necessarily the case. What is required to be a skilled person, is that you have the necessary technical knowledge or electrical experience to be able to avoid the common dangers posed by electricity.

That's the definition of skilled person in BS 7671.

An instructed person and a skilled person being able to do the work (with certain exceptions most notably touching the incoming mains supply from the electricity companies cable), for a competent person to then sign off the work.

Where did you find that description of what an instructed person or skilled person is "able" to do?

The 4th category being Joe Public who doesn't for any reason fall into the category of skilled or instructed and so can't touch anything.

That's not true either, except implicitly via Part P in that if he was insufficiently skilled he would not be able to comply with it.

 

[SimonH2]

You start from a fundamental misunderstanding of what "Part P" (as most people misunderstand it) is about.

EVERYONE has to comply with Part P, regardless of qualifications or membership of schemes - Part P lays down technical/safety standards that installations should meet. What does differ is in how notifiable work can be notified. What is and isn't notifiable is set out in Schedule 4 to the Building Regs 2010 - in essence, if it's not listed as being non-notifiable then it's notifiable. Two issues - Part P lays down the requirements (which apply to everyone), Schedule 4 lays down what is/isn't notifiable. The confusion is that "Part P" appeared in the 2005 building regs, at the same time as the notification for electrics came in (as an aside, it was Schedule 2 in the 2005 regs) - so the two get confused.


Some electrical work is not notifiable - and anyone can do it who is competent to do so.

Some work is notifiable - and still anyone can do it who is competent to do so. What differs is how they notify the work so as to remain within the law.

If someone is a member of an approved scheme, then they can self notify their own work through that scheme. This is regardless of qualifications, though naturally if they have no skills or qualifications we hope they won't be admitted (ref: some of the discussions about the merits of "5 day wonder" courses). This notification is along the lines of "I have designed this installation/modification. I have installed it. And I have tested it. All in accordance with <standards>."
If he agrees, then another person (who may be skilled or unskilled) may assist, working under his direction and supervision, but ultimately the person notifying is stating that he was responsible for the design, installation, and testing. If he was not responsible for the design or installation, then to sign and say that he is would be a lie.

If the person doing the work cannot self notify through a scheme, then they must go through the Local Authority Building Control route. To do this you must notify your LABC dept before starting work, and again after finishing - and for some work, you may need to tell them at defined stages (such as after "first fix" and before it's plastered over). Only LABC may legally issue a completion certificate for another person's work.


So what it comes down to is ...
If you are competent then you can do electrical work, and as long as it complies with Part P and BS7671 then that's OK. There is not restriction on what you can do, as long as you comply with relevant standards/laws/etc.
If you are not a member of an approved scheme, then you cannot self notify notifiable work and must go through the LABC notification route.

That is the only difference.
I could go and fit a new CU - and it'll cost me £lots (my LA starts at £150, I've heard of some charging £400 ) to notify (as required by law) through LABC.
For the LABC fees or possibly less, I can employ an electrician who is a member of a scheme, and he can self certify for a few quid (I think one scheme charges £12, another charges £2.50).

If I choose to do the work without notifying, then I can still comply with Part P, but I'll be in breach of a different bits of the regs.

 

[Wired1]

You will not find any of those 3 words in the Building Regulations. They don't even refer to "competent person" schemes. The closest you'll get (and the only times you even see the word "competence") are the references to Building Engineering Services Competence Accreditation Limited.

I believe the wording is found in the 17th edition Wiring Regulations.

I wonder also whether a detached brick garage would in any case be an exempt buiding under Class 6:

Small detached buildings

1. A detached single storey building, having a floor area which does not exceed 30m2, which contains no sleeping accommodation and is a building—

(a)no point of which is less than one metre from the boundary of its curtilage; or

(b)which is constructed substantially of non-combustible material.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I believe the wording is found in the 17th edition Wiring Regulations.

Yes.

But not the Building Regulations.

And if you read the Wiring Regulations you'll find nothing about what any class of person is "allowed" to do.

I wonder also whether a detached brick garage would in any case be an exempt buiding under Class 6:

If it meets that definition, it's exempt from notification - sorry - I'm always forgetting that - but not from Part P.

 

[JohnW2]

I wonder also whether a detached brick garage would in any case be an exempt buiding under Class 6:

If it meets that definition, it's exempt from notification - sorry - I'm always forgetting that - but not from Part P.

I've never even thought of that one! Does it really mean that any/all electrical work in such an outbuilding (as well as the building work) does not require notification? - i.e. can one do absolutely anything, electrically, in such a building without notification? That surely doesn't sound right?!

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

No.

As Bas said, it is not exempt from part P.

 

[Norcon]

How many sparks actually test the consumer unit after fitting?
Had a new one installed a while back and whilst I cannot be sure I reckon he did no testing.
Well if he had he would he would left me some kind of certificate?

Was over at the brothers house yesterday wiring in a new heat alarm and some light fittings in his kitchen and few other odds and ends that the same spark never got round to finsihing.
( He fell off a horse and suffered serious injuries - not joking) and discovered the other three smoke alarms he also installed don't work.
So obviously he didn't test those either!
That was six months ago and the house could have burned down in that time killing all occupants.

He's a well established guy so no phoney when it comes to electrical matters.

 

[JohnW2]

No. As Bas said, it is not exempt from part P.

As we all know, nothing exempts any electrical work which comes within the scope of Part P from the requirement to comply with Part P. However, that's not what I was asking - as you will have seen, I was asking whether any/all work in such a building is non-notifiable.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Norcon]

Might as well notify santa claus.
You lot make me laugh.

 

[EFLImpudence]

As we all know, nothing exempts any electrical work which comes within the scope of Part P from the requirement to comply with Part P.

That's a strange sentence.

However, that's not what I was asking - as you will have seen, I was asking whether any/all work in such a building is non-notifiable.

As far as the Building Regulations are concerned - yes, all except part P.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Might as well notify santa claus.
You lot make me laugh.

It's not us.
It's The Law.

As for your work - it should have been tested and you should have been issued with the necessary certificates.

 

[Norcon]

Might as well notify santa claus.
You lot make me laugh.

It's not us.
It's The Law.

As for your work - it should have been tested and you should have been issued with the necessary certificates.

Thats what I thought.

 

[JohnW2]

As we all know, nothing exempts any electrical work which comes within the scope of Part P from the requirement to comply with Part P.

That's a strange sentence.

I suppose it is - but do you understand what I mean? The (few sentences which constitute) text of Part P defines its scope, and any electrical work which comes within that scope has to comply - with no ifs, buts or exemptions.

However, that's not what I was asking - as you will have seen, I was asking whether any/all work in such a building is non-notifiable.

As far as the Building Regulations are concerned - yes, all except part P.

I'm a little surprised that, like so many others, you seem to be rather muddling up the concepts of compliance (with Part P of the Building Regs) and notification (under the Building Regs). Whatever, what you say sounds rather like a 'No' (in terms of notification) - is that what you meant? Where do the Building Regs say that the exemption (regarding notification, not compliance) cited by Wired 1 does not apply to some Parts of the Building Regs?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

Oops, post full of rubbish