Cooling tips

[Harry Bloomfield]

I really think that it's both inaccurate and unhelpful to keep using the term 'inevitable'.

Because it is inevitable. You cannot completely avoid the heat, or cold passing the through the insulation.

Which it simply doesn't in the UK.

It absolutely does - a few days of it being too warm outdoors, and we get threads, exactly like the present one.

Then you also seem to be ignoring the cold of winter, making homes cold.

Both due to the ambient outdoor temperatures, making it's way through the insulation.

 

[StephenStephen]

Ah now I think I understand the 'inevitable' misunderstanding.

The heat flow from outside to inside starts as soon as there's a temperature difference.
When that temp difference first occurs, there's a delay in the heat reaching the internal surface, due to the insulation
If the insulation is sufficient, and the temp difference is not great enough, or/and doesn't last long enough, then the temp rise on the inside surface isn't inevitable.

But surely this is a bit of a red herring - the much more significant impact on the inside temp is the rate of heat transfer, not the length of the delay as it moves through the insulation.

You do seem to be getting clearer that you are arguing that it heat transfer (from outside to inside) occuring which is, in your view, inevitable.
Rather than arguing, as I misunderstood earlier, it is temperature matching which is inevitable.

 

[Deleted member 317777]

There have been several times when I have been shocked at your lack of understanding of simple legal principles. And I have gently baby walked you through them. Without you even knowing I was doing it.

Condescending!​

That’s not like you at all…

 

[Brigadier]

Because it is inevitable

Only if the temperature gradient remains one way for a long enough period of time.

"Long enough" being determined by the thermal conductivity of the insulator, and its thickness.

You cannot completely avoid the heat, or cold passing the through the insulation.

See above.

It absolutely does - a few days of it being too warm outdoors, and we get threads, exactly like the present one.

Then you also seem to be ignoring the cold of winter, making homes cold.

Both due to the ambient outdoor temperatures, making it's way through the insulation.

Nope: open doors and windows, draughts etc make far more difference to the living space temperatures than does the insulation on or in the walls.

 

[denso13]

But surely this is a bit of a red herring -

Yes, theory and practice are two different things. The day/night cycle, for one, means it is not inevitable at all. Far from it.

 

[Deleted member 317777]

Yes, theory and practice are two different things. The day/night cycle, for one, means it is not inevitable at all. Far from it.

Ventilation isn’t your strong point if I remember correctly

 

[StephenStephen]

Because it is inevitable. You cannot completely avoid the heat, or cold passing the through the insulation.



It absolutely does - a few days of it being too warm outdoors, and we get threads, exactly like the present one.

Then you also seem to be ignoring the cold of winter, making homes cold.

Both due to the ambient outdoor temperatures, making it's way through the insulation.

I think you're overstating your case here.

Whilst extreme or/and long enough heat (or cold) will (of course) change the indoor temperature, doesn't your own experience make it absolutely clear that, under UK conditions, insulation in practice generally prevents temperature matching - it might get warmer (or cooler) inside after a few days, but it is not inevitable that it will match the outdoors.

 

[MNW67]

Condescending!​

That’s not like you at all…

That made me LOL!

On balance, though, I think I would prefer to be thought of as being a bit condescending rather than aggressive and obnoxious, as many are on here.

Having said that, I was accused of being nasty the other night!

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Nope: open doors and windows, draughts etc make far more difference to the living space temperatures than does the insulation on or in the walls.

Then how do you account, for my home's internal temperature being so much lower, than the outdoor temperatures, with no ac, windows, doors, and blinds closed? Air flow, can make you feel cooler, simply because your sweat can more easily evaporate - a fan works well for that.

Ventilate the home, during the cooler, night hours.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Whilst extreme or/and long enough heat (or cold) will (of course) change the indoor temperature, doesn't your own experience make it absolutely clear that, under UK conditions, insulation in practice generally prevents temperature matching - it might get warmer (or cooler) inside after a few days, but it is not inevitable that it will match the outdoors.

To some extent yes, but the point we are trying to get across, is that no insulation, no matter how good, no matter how expensive - will prevent heat or cold passing through it eventually.

 

[StephenStephen]

...are we finally heading towards a 'both and' understanding?

We are writing about the interaction of a number of complex systems - human bodies, convection, conduction, thermal mass, conductivity, evaporation, weather, including internal weather, humidity, temperature variation, solar gain, diurnal variation, cultural practice, emotional experience, shading, leaf growth, reflective radiation (both in buildings and in the wider environment)....etc

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

We are writing about the interaction of a number of complex systems - human bodies, convection, conduction, thermal mass, conductivity, evaporation, weather, including internal weather, humidity, temperature variation, solar gain, diurnal variation, cultural practice, emotional experience, shading, leaf growth, reflective radiation (both in buildings and in the wider environment)....etc

Maybe you are! Others might have different ideas.

 

[MNW67]

We are writing about the interaction of a number of complex systems - human bodies, convection, conduction, thermal mass, conductivity, evaporation, weather, including internal weather, humidity, temperature variation, solar gain, diurnal variation, cultural practice, emotional experience, shading, leaf growth, reflective radiation (both in buildings and in the wider environment)....etc

It's even more complicated than I had imagined!

It was @aveatry who kicked off this particular discussion. I wonder whether he anticipated that it would become so heated.

 

[Brigadier]

Then how do you account, for my home's internal temperature being so much lower, than the outdoor temperatures, with no ac, windows, doors, and blinds closed?

Because your "inevitable" heat transfer through your insulation isn't inevitable in the real world.

Which is what some of us have been saying all along.

 

[StephenStephen]

To some extent yes, but the point we are trying to get across, is that no insulation, no matter how good, no matter how expensive - will prevent heat or cold passing through it eventually.

Edited:
Yes, I understand that's the point you're trying to get across.
I'm not clear why you're wedded to this absolutism.

One point I am bringing is that if the insulation is sufficient, and the temp difference is short or small enough, then the inside surface temp will not rise enough to be worth considering, or may never even rise, because the outside temp drops and cools the wall before the temp raise reaches the inside surface.

For the argument of inevitability to hold water, you'd have to agree, for example, that a highly insulated wall will inevitably transfer heat to the inside, even with a small heat difference for a short time and subsequent outdoor cooling.

Eventually, the outside temperature always changes - it is erroneous to suggest that heat transfer is inevitable from one end of the system to the other under changeable conditions.