Copper vs Plastic
- Thread starter planemad
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i've seen quite a few ceilings brought down by leaking o rings on push fits and numerous other leaks and that includes ones where the pipe ends were neatly cut and the fittings where perfectly fitted with inserts and collet clips. i've seen them fail within a year or two, it's not that common but does happen. as for longevity i guess we'll have to see if the epdm (i looked it up) seals last as long or longer than the estimated age of 30-50 years although i think that could well depend on if the pipes get disturbed.
before anyone goes complaining that it's nothing to do with it's construction i have to say the biggest problem with plastic pipe and push fits is they give diyers the idea that they can do jobs they couldn't have done with copper and they muck up it's installation time and time again because they think they know what they're up to when they've got no idea at all! for bad installations new houses are the perfect example, half of new houses are water damage insurance claims waiting to happen, no inserts or clips, badly installed pipework, few pipe clips etc. this is my main reason for disliking push fits, 9 times out of 10 they're installed wrong!
before anyone goes complaining that it's nothing to do with it's construction i have to say the biggest problem with plastic pipe and push fits is they give diyers the idea that they can do jobs they couldn't have done with copper and they muck up it's installation time and time again because they think they know what they're up to when they've got no idea at all! for bad installations new houses are the perfect example, half of new houses are water damage insurance claims waiting to happen, no inserts or clips, badly installed pipework, few pipe clips etc. this is my main reason for disliking push fits, 9 times out of 10 they're installed wrong!
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Could you be more specific about the number you've seen?
For example, is it 1-5? 6-20? 21-50? More?
And were they the same brand, or a variety of brands?
If the latter, did one brand account for most of the leaks, or was it seemingly random?
And what proportion of the installations used plastic pipe with the push-fit fittings, compared to those that used copper tube?
And of those that used copper, in how many cases was the tube in new and perfect condition, i.e. not dented, squashed, or deformed, and in how many cases were the push-fit fittings installed onto old copper pipework?
And of those that used plastic, did you examine the pipe and verify that it hadn't been scratched or scored?
The only ways that a push-fit fitting can leak, other than on the O ring, is by breaking/splitting or by the pipe pulling out of the grab ring. Are you saying that you've seen numerous fittings break/split? Or were the failures caused by the pipe pulling out?
If the latter, then did you examine the grab rings? If so, were they flawed? If so, were they went back to the manufacturer? If not, then why not?
And were the failures all the same brand, or a variety of brands?
If the latter, did one brand account for most of the leaks, or was it seemingly random?
You seem to be implying that some of the instances you've seen were correctly installed, but are you claiming that in all cases the pipework was clipped at the distances stipulated by the manufacturer, and that the correct provision was made for thermal expansion?
If so, can you indicate, roughly, the proportion of "quite a few ceilings" that were brought down by correctly installed push-fit fittings?
Again, were they the same brand, or a variety of brands?
If the latter, did one brand account for most of the leaks, or was it seemingly random?
If it's not that common, then it's reasonable to use the word "rare", or "unusual". Given that it's unusual, or even rare, for push-fit, what word would you use to describe how often, by comparison, you see problems with eroded, or corroded copper on soldered installations, leaking joints on badly installed compression fittings, and split pipes or olives pushed off by water freezing inside copper pipes?
Who made the estimation of 30-50 years?
Time and time again? Really? Are you saying that the same novices repeatedly make the same mistake? Surely people who make a mistake are made wiser by the experience, and are unlikely to make the same mistake time and time again?
Is it more that case that "time and time again" just a handy phrase to use, in order to create the impression of a wealth of examples of failures caused by novices?
The reality, i.e. not the 'wrong' impression that you imply, is that plastic pipe and push-fit fittings give diyers the correct idea that they can do jobs they couldn't have done with copper. This is a fact, not a myth, or the mistake that you imply.
And if you're right, that novices make a great many mistakes, and make them "time and time again", (sic.), then those are ALL installation errors, not manufacturing or design faults.
Perfect example of what? Clearly not of novices using the products wrongly, so do you mean that new build faults are the perfect example of installation errors?
If I chose a new build estate near where I live, I could easily argue that you're 100% wrong, since in a sample of around 50 properties, I can count at least 50 leaks that have arisen from shabbily made compression joints, over-rigid installation that doesn't allow for building movement, failure to flush systems resulting in copper corrosion within four years, use of tap connectors with cheap fibre washers made from a material similar in strength and porosity to porridge, and misalignment of rigid copper pipework causing strain in, and failure of, plastic WC float valve shanks.
In all of those 50 properties, not one single leak resulted from a failed plastic pipe, a push-fit fitting, or an O ring failure.
If you find any claim from me, on any post, on any topic, regarding the number of leaks on non plastic, and non push-fit, installations that I've seen, I can look through my records and tell you the precise number.
So, how have you collected your statistics?
B
BigBurner
O rings will degrade through time due to chemical ageing. Temperature spikes and drops also reduce their lifespan.
When mechanical components are taken apart its usual to replace the O rings with new ones due too their failure or just as a precaution.
How long before wholesale failure in the UK's stock of pushfit fittings?
Or should plumbers start replacing them asap before they fail? Prevention is better than cure.
I think a domestic plumbing system is a less rigorous environment for their use IMHO so maybe they will outlast their 50 year gurantee. (or whatever it is)
Good post and spot on. Some are time-bombs that will sprinkle in the future. Just like unvented cylinders. The install base is getting bigger. The big booms will be in 20 years time when the poorly and illegally fitted cylinders, that have not been services each year, will have seizure problems. One recent thread had a CD50 boiler's unvented discharge pipe badly fitted. How many more of these are around?
B
BigBurner
This man is not in the real world for sure. I know one site where they test Hep2O to 18 bar to be sure as they have had far too many problems. The average failure is one per house, some with none others with many. They say it is not quicker on new builds at all. A good copper pipe fitter can do it quicker.
For no reason many weeks or months after the resident has moved in, the occasional fitting blows, after being tested to 18 bar. The problem is the failure tends to be catastrophic with ceiling coming down, where a failure in copper would be a wet patch on ceiling.
So far failure has only been push-fit fittings, except one where a pipe split near to the boiler flow when the boiler's pressure vessel failed. It must have split around 3.5 bar pressure and 80C plus water temp. Plastic pipes resistance to pressure drops radically when hot. The pipe was slightly scored when threaded through. So much for ease of threading the stuff.
It is used on new builds so the *****'s will not nick it, and also unskilled labour can fit it with a skilled supervision.
Not one of the skilled fitters said they would use it in their own homes.
The best push-fit pipe system is Osma gold with two lipped (W shaped) O rings. But I still would not use the fittings.
That's exactly my point - the evidence is always anecdotal, and never objective. Your particular anecdotes are worth even less than average, because you're all talk and no action.
Then clearly they aren't very good at using push-fit.
Nothing ever fails for no reason.
I've been to two houses in two days where ceilings were down and carpets and furniture were drenched, and neither house had a scrap of plastic or push-fit. That was back here in the real world though, not the land populated entirely by hatstands.
Then it was installed, or handled, by idiots.
Clearly not, judging by your claims.
And yet many engineers would, and do.
A good few years ago I did a complete replumb of a property using hep2O. I had a couple of trainees with me and they asked what pressure the hep would take. We decided to test it. I made up a length of copper, hep, brass compression fitting and hep fitting. I also left out an insert in one end of the hep. It was completed with a speedfit cap. The whole lot held with a test pressure of 60 bar. Careful manipulation (chucking bricks at the hep, smacking it with a shovel etc all very scientific) caused no failures. It finally failed when I ran over the pipe with the van and the compression fitting blew off.
Perhaps norcon is another alias of BB, just so BB can appear to have a sensible conversation with another poster, just to try to make himself look right.
BB has 2 or 3 alias's that he 'talks to himself' in posts, just to have someone agree with him and appear right
Basically he is a sad and dangerous googler, who knows nothing about real world heating and gas installations
BB has 2 or 3 alias's that he 'talks to himself' in posts, just to have someone agree with him and appear right
Basically he is a sad and dangerous googler, who knows nothing about real world heating and gas installations
B
BigBurner
If I say it happened, it happened. You are fool to be sucked in by push-fit fittings.
B
BigBurner
Did he use an A bomb as well? Duh!!!
B
BigBurner
BB has 2 or 3 alias's that he 'talks to himself' in posts, just to have someone agree with him and appear right
He does? Just like that one idiot who keeps going on about unvented cylinders. And the idiots who say they are 100% safe. Duh!
I have absolutely no doubt at all that you believe that it happened.
It's the chasm between your 'reality' and everyone else's that remains unbreached.
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