B
BigBurner
That is the place for info, not from bathroom changers.
Could heating systems be improved with this idea?
- Thread starter vexation
- Start date
That is the place for info, not from bathroom changers.
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B
BigBurner
Yes. Gundfos do the Alpha version, but costs much more.
What boiler do you have?
Does it have an integral pump?
Is the system a sealed system? Or open vented?
Just musing:
If pump overrun is essential on your boiler and it is a system boiler (integral pump), then a plate heat exchanger can be fitted just after the boiler to isolate it from the CH/DHW side. The flow & return pipes run to this plate only. The other side goes to the CH/DHW flow and return. A Smart pump on the CH/DHW side. A flow switch on this side too. Then have a timer, say set to 5 minutes with the room stat circuit running through and to the flow switch too. When the flow switch is switch off (no flow through rads) the room stat circuit is energised for 5 minutes longer, then the boiler can pump around through the plate heat exchanger and dissipate heat.
This also ensures full flow through the boiler at all times, so no problems with heat exchanger failing prematurely. This full flow is not available with a system with TRVs and one rad open. Poor flow through some boilers cause premature failure. Also the boiler is isolated from the rads so no magentite (sludge) enters the heat boiler's heat exchanger. Then the plate can be screwed out and cleaned if problems. This plate protects the boiler no end.
The boiler pump can then be on the lowest most economical speed as it is only pumping through the plate. The Smart pump will run down, saving energy, when the TRVs close up or partially close up, so overall you may use less electricity than having the one boiler pump on full speed.
Plate is around £90-100
Smart pump £47
flow switch £20-25
New TRV valve £10-15
Make sure plate is well insulated.
N
namsag
Because a boiler has a built in flow switch it does not mean it cant have pump over run
OK, Screwfix miss a trick with the way its described then - looking at it it just looks like a manual three-speed job (so why is there a three-pos. switch if it's got automatic speed selection?)
The boiler is a Glow Worm Flexicom 30HX with open vent. The pump is located remotely from the boiler.
It's getting a bit complicated now! I guess the smart pump wouldn't work very well with an automatic bypass.
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And what would be the labour to fit this and is it a valid and proven configuration? - I need to reduce our heating bill. We have one radiator in the airing cupboard without a TRV that runs all the time. I have turned down the lockshield but it is a constant pull on the boiler and the wallet as well.
Cheers
Steve
Steve
B
BigBurner
Plate heat exchangers are used extensively in industry. All proven. What I described will protect the boiler 100% and provide a control interlock enabling TRvs on all rads.
Of course, a by-pass can be a motor on-motor off zone valve. When the flow switch switches off it opens the mo-mo valve to give 100% by pass and the Smart pump around the short loop for say maybe 2 minutes until the timer cuts off, then closes the valve. When a TRV opens the Smart pump winds up and the flow switch switches on the burner. The mo-mo is open when the flow switch sees no flow and only for 2 minutes to dissipate heat.
Smart pump £47
flow switch £20-25
New TRV valve £10-15
timer £10
mo-mo valve £35
Using a plate ensures total system isolation from the boiler and full flow at all times.
B
BigBurner
It's getting a bit complicated now! I guess the smart pump wouldn't work very well with an automatic bypass.
If you want it doing properly read what I write.
lawrenso wrote
Try turning it off.
Can't , well I can, but this is supposedly for the system feed - top radiator or whatever.
Steve
B
BigBurner
lawrenso wrote
Try turning it off.
Can't , well I can, but this is supposedly for the system feed - top radiator or whatever.
Steve
System feed? What do you mean?
If rooms are heating up a widely differing rates, that would suggest that the radiators have not been sized to match the heat loss of the room.
As for the single rad in the hall heating the entire stairwell and landing with the wall stat in the hall, I can sympathise as I had the same scenario at my last house. The stat was always turning the rad off before the TRVs in all the other rooms had a chance to work. The solution was simple: close down the LS valve on the hall radiator so the rad gave out less heat and the hall heated up slower. A rad rated at 1KW for a 75°C flow/65°C return will produce 860W if the return temp is 55°C and 700W if it is 45°C. The return temp is reduced by closing the LS valve.
It might be worthwhile putting separate radiators on the landing(s) - if possible. This would enable you to reduce the size of the hall rad.
Grundfos have instructions for Adjusting the Bypass when an Alpha pump is fitted.
lawrenso wrote
Try turning it off.
Can't , well I can, but this is supposedly for the system feed - top radiator or whatever.
Steve
System feed? What do you mean?
I think he means he ain't got a clue about plumbing.
To Vex!
Whilst its easy to have ideas, its very difficult to come up with ideas that have not been considered before and either developed or found to be of no or little advantage.
You have been advised of a boiler which turns off if there is no flow round the system because all the TRVs have closed. Its not that wonderful because the pump has to be turned on every 5-10 minutes to see if any TRVs have opened since it last checked.
Simon had described a TRV which sends an RF signal to bring the boiler on when an individual TRV is open. Thats a very good system, at a cost, but sales managers in the UK think its too expensive and complicated for the UK market. In Germany there is a completely different attitude to life and they like expensive top of the range engineering and they are willing to pay for it. Here we prefer the cheapest option!
Tony Glazier
Whilst its easy to have ideas, its very difficult to come up with ideas that have not been considered before and either developed or found to be of no or little advantage.
You have been advised of a boiler which turns off if there is no flow round the system because all the TRVs have closed. Its not that wonderful because the pump has to be turned on every 5-10 minutes to see if any TRVs have opened since it last checked.
Simon had described a TRV which sends an RF signal to bring the boiler on when an individual TRV is open. Thats a very good system, at a cost, but sales managers in the UK think its too expensive and complicated for the UK market. In Germany there is a completely different attitude to life and they like expensive top of the range engineering and they are willing to pay for it. Here we prefer the cheapest option!
Tony Glazier
B
BigBurner
He has also been advised by me re: Smart pumps, flow switch, plate heat exchanger, zone valve, etc. Which are much simpler and more effective solutions.
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