Counterfeit and Illegal Plugs and Leads

[ban-all-sheds]

it rather emphasizes the nonsense of allowing completely untested and unregulated socket covers to be marketed freely.

No - that's the role you've been put on Earth to perform.

We already know that many of these have oversize pins which could permanently damage a socket

Yes, we do - you may stop reminding us.

 

[FatallyFlawed]

I have been looking closely at one of the counterfeit plugs fitted with the counterfeit BS 1362 fuses (similar to the one shown at www.bs1363.org.uk ).

Although the fuse does have continuity it turns out that the plug wiring bypasses the fuseholder, so it is actually another version of an unfused plug.

Digging deeper finds more issues!

 

[plugwash]

If you are found selling, or facilitating the sale of, counterfeit, stolen, copyright-infringing etc-etc-whatever goods you are shut down. The offence is absolute - if it happened on your watch you go down for it.

That's it - end of. Screw up just once and there is no more eBay in the UK, no more Amazon in the UK.

Put that in force, and just watch how quickly it becomes apparent that their previous protestations that they can't possibly be expected to police every single sale they host turn out to be a pack of self-serving lies.

I think the result of that would be that it was impractical to run sites where the general public could sell their wares. That would mean the end of ebay and the end of third party sellers.

Personally I think that cure is worse than the disease.

 

[JohnW2]

If you are found selling, or facilitating the sale of, counterfeit, stolen, copyright-infringing etc-etc-whatever goods you are shut down. The offence is absolute - if it happened on your watch you go down for it.
That's it - end of. Screw up just once and there is no more eBay in the UK, no more Amazon in the UK.

I think the result of that would be that it was impractical to run sites where the general public could sell their wares. That would mean the end of ebay and the end of third party sellers. Personally I think that cure is worse than the disease.

Indeed so. Maybe well-intentioned, but totally impractical/unrealistic.

One could not expect Amazon or eBay (or, indeed, any retailer of any description) to examine (and have the expertise to examine) every product offered for sale in order to determine whether it was 'counterfeit' etc. Indeed, as I keep saying, most of the rogue products being discussed in this thread are unusual in that they are (to someone 'in the know') immediately identifiable as 'rogue' by simple visual insfection. Much more commonly, fake items are such that the average person (or retailer, or whoever) cannot easily, if at all, distinguish them from the real thing.

Those who can be shown to have been knowingly involved in illegal sales should, of course, be dealt with severely.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So neither of you want the sale of dodgy items like this on eBay and Amazon to be stopped.

Fair enough.

Or...

Maybe...

If Amazon and eBay are running commercial operations in ways which facilitate theft, fraud, lawbreaking and (potentially) injury or death to people buying through them, maybe they should be shut down?

 

[FatallyFlawed]

Those who can be shown to have been knowingly involved in illegal sales should, of course, be dealt with severely.

John, you are absolutely right.

It would also be not unreasonable to prohibit UK companies from facilitating sales of certain regulated items by sellers who are not based in the UK, that way the number of illegal and dangerous products shipped directly to UK consumers from China etc could be seriously reduced. If UK suppliers continue to sell illegal goods they can then be dealt with appropriately.

 

[JohnW2]

So neither of you want the sale of dodgy items like this on eBay and Amazon to be stopped. Fair enough.
Or... Maybe... If Amazon and eBay are running commercial operations in ways which facilitate theft, fraud, lawbreaking and (potentially) injury or death to people buying through them, maybe they should be shut down?

It's not just Amazon and eBay. Even with conventional retailers, there are a few who have never be found to have been (unwittingly) selling fake goods - and that includes most supermarkets, department stores and, probably, most high-street and online retail outlets. If your well-intentioned, but totally unworkable, suggestion were to be rigoroulsy enforced, there would be almost no sellers of anything left in business after a few days!!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Not so.

What would happen would be that within a few days retailers etc would be getting their act together and stopping saying "ooh no we can't do that it's too hard".

 

[JohnW2]

John, you are absolutely right. It would also be not unreasonable to prohibit UK companies from facilitating sales of certain regulated items by sellers who are not based in the UK, that way the number of illegal and dangerous products shipped directly to UK consumers from China etc could be seriously reduced. If UK suppliers continue to sell illegal goods they can then be dealt with appropriately.

That, if it were possible, would certainly help in relation to some of the items we're talking about here, but it would probably only really scratch the surface. For a start, as I pointed out before, if one looks at the eBay listings you brought to our attention, whilst the (presumably) unfused plugs were being sold from Hong Kong, virtually all of the rest (those with sleeved earth pins, but which may have had fuses) were being sold by UK sellers. That suggests that the authorities should address the issue of the import of these non-compliant products.

Furthermore, as I've said many times, we are dealing with unusual 'counterfeits' here, since they are so obviously rogue - and therefore can be immediately identified as such by anyone in the know (which, I admit, doses not include most of the general public). However, what we probably should be worrying more about are the 'true counterfeits', as I would call them, which are undoubtedly out there - e.g. the plug which is visually indistingusihable from an MK one, but which is made from inferior materials, possibly slighly incorrect dimensions, poor QC etc. etc. They are perhaps the greatest concern - if people buy nameless plugs from unknown sources at rock bottom proces, maybe they should not be too surprised if they end up with a dodgy product, but if they have forked out a lot for what they think is a very high quality product, then they don't deserve to end up with a dangerous product.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

Not so. What would happen would be that within a few days retailers etc would be getting their act together and stopping saying "ooh no we can't do that it's too hard".

Most of them wouldn't have a chance, because they would have already been closed down by commission of your 'absolute offence'. I wouldn't mind betting that a rigorous search of all retailers today would find than many of them were already (in most cases unwittingly) comitting the offence.

... and just think what would happen to retail prices if ever retailer had to send off every item for expert examination, to ensure it was not a fake, before they could offer it for sale.

I'd love to be living in your Utopia, but sadly I am not

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

OK - fine - we won't put a stop to the sales of dodgy items.

 

[Stoday]

OK - fine - we won't put a stop to the sales of dodgy items.

It would be more correct to say we can't put a stop to the sales of dodgy items.

 

[FatallyFlawed]

OK - fine - we won't put a stop to the sales of dodgy items.

It would be more correct to say we can't put a stop to the sales of dodgy items.

But we can, and as engineers should, try!

We are making some progress, with the help of my local Trading Standards department. All but two of the illegal listings on ebay which were originally published at www.bs1363.org.uk have been deleted! A further batch has now been published on the site (the deleted items remain there for reference).

Amazon continues to fail to respond to my messages, and has also not acted on the Trading Standards approach! A further batch of Amazon listed products has now been posted on www.bs1363.org.uk , these are laptop chargers for which the power cord is shown as having sleeved earth pins. Some of these have comments posted on their site indicating power lead problems.

Of course, not all counterfeit plugs will have sleeved earth pins, but it is the most obvious identifier.

In the absence of proper measures by government I urge you to contribute to the effort.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

OK - fine - we won't put a stop to the sales of dodgy items.

It would be more correct to say we can't put a stop to the sales of dodgy items.

Well actually I've shown that we can, but that there isn't the will to tolerate the consequences.

But I'm a benign monarch, and interested in the happiness and wellbeing of my subjects, so how about this:

We keep the laws exactly the same as they are now, apart from the penalties. If convicted of a trading standards offence, no more piddling little fines - your business has to stop trading for a period of time, and the chief executive, or the most senior exec in this country, goes to jail.

Maybe then Amazon might stop ignoring complaints.

 

[Paul_C]

Most of them wouldn't have a chance, because they would have already been closed down by commission of your 'absolute offence'. I wouldn't mind betting that a rigorous search of all retailers today would find than many of them were already (in most cases unwittingly) comitting the offence.

And would this "absolute offence" also result in FedEx, DHL, etc. - and even Royal Mail - being closed down due to being a party involved in the delivering of counterfeit or other illegal goods?

If one is going to hold eBay, Amazon, and similar parties responsible for the legality and legitimacy of goods which are supplied by some other party, then why not hold the courier or postal service equally responsible?

Then this "absolute offence" could also be applied to any ISP which has allowed access to a website from which counterfeit goods can be ordered. Then BT/OpenReach can be put out of business as well for providing the lines over which a connection was provided to the ISP in order to order the goods. Where are you going to draw the line?

Ultimately, none of these parties is directly responsible for selling counterfeit or other illegal goods, since they are merely acting as agents, in good faith, to facilitate trade.

Expecting Amazon and eBay to act upon official complaints received about a company selling counterfeit goods is one thing, but to apply a "one strike you're out" rule over goods supplied by another party would be draconian.