Counterfeit and Illegal Plugs and Leads

[FatallyFlawed]

Plugs designed for medical equipment do sometimes lack the fuse because of the dangers should the fuse blow. However again they are not FAKE although normally coloured RED to show they are for medical equipment.

I did not realise that, do you know what standards/regulations such fuseless plugs should meet?

Not standards or regs, but this document for NHS Scotland some years back might be of use:
www.hfs.scot.nhs.uk/publications/PSAN9504.pdf

Thanks Grizzly, that is really useful. It certainly clarifies that it is a very special case and has no impact on the sale of plugs and leads to consumers, or any non-medical user.

 

[FatallyFlawed]

I can see no such requirement in BS1363-2.

Thanks. However, there surely must be some requirement for the minimum acceptable amount of contact between the plug's pin and the socket's 'receptacle'? - it would seem unlikely that a socket would be acceptable if, say, there were only 1mm² of contact between earth pin and socket?

Whilst I fully expect to be totally ignored...

- in any physically possible plug/socket arrangement there is unlikely to be more than a single point of contact. Try to visualise how there could be more given real world bent pieces of metal. Think about how some connectors take (let's say 13A) and a USB Micro-AB receptacle (have a look at one! you can hardly see it) takes 1.8A.

The difference can't be in the area of contact, as this can only be a single point (or sometimes maybe two single points), but is more likely to be related to the volume of the pins/socket contacts, and their power dissipation capabilities.

It would be nice to see a paper/book or whatever, explaining how a given connector gets a given current rating.

Thanks for that very rational comment, I am sure that you are correct.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That's a moulded plug for Class II use - it doesn't need an electrically functioning earth pin. A brass one would be pointless - there would be nothing to connect it to. I've got a number of wallwarts with plastic earth pins. It's no big deal.

BUT...

For situations where it does matter, the solution is breathtakingly simple, and politically unacceptable.

It is often said that chance of detection is a more effective deterrent than severity of punishment. That may be true for sole trader self employed criminals, but I've long held the view that when it comes to corporate crime a very effective deterrent is mind-bogglingy horrific penalties.

Make me king for a day and I'll sort it out.

Amazon, eBay etc?

Welcome to a new law which says that nobody gives a s**t if you could not "reasonably" have been expected to know, and a new law which says your mealy-mouthed lawyers will be ignored.

If you are found selling, or facilitating the sale of, counterfeit, stolen, copyright-infringing etc-etc-whatever goods you are shut down. The offence is absolute - if it happened on your watch you go down for it.

That's it - end of. Screw up just once and there is no more eBay in the UK, no more Amazon in the UK.

Put that in force, and just watch how quickly it becomes apparent that their previous protestations that they can't possibly be expected to police every single sale they host turn out to be a pack of self-serving lies.

 

[Monkeh]

That's a moulded plug for Class II use - it doesn't need an electrically functioning earth pin. A brass one would be pointless - there would be nothing to connect it to. I've got a number of wallwarts with plastic earth pins. It's no big deal.

That's a plug which is in no way compliant with BS1363.

 

[Grizzly]

That's a moulded plug for Class II use - it doesn't need an electrically functioning earth pin. A brass one would be pointless - there would be nothing to connect it to. I've got a number of wallwarts with plastic earth pins. It's no big deal.

It would need a fuse, though...

 

[JohnW2]

I'm not talking about the material, but the dimensions and profile. Also, BS1363 requires testing to prove the material used for the ISOD and/or sleeving on the live pins does not cause excessive wear to any part of the socket.

Fair enough. If the dimensions/profile or the materials used are non-compliant, then there clearly is a potential safety issue. All I was trying to say was that the fact that the pin was partially-sleeved, per se, would be unlikely to damage the socket. After all, one can but presume that they will have used the same materials/design etc. for the earth pin as for the other two pins - so it would be unlikely that the earth pin would damage the socket whilst the other two didn't.

However, I'm not really sure why we're having all these discussions since, regardless of discussions about what safety issues may or may not be present, I think we're probably all agreed that the illegal selling of non-compliant plugs in the UK should not happen, and that the authorities should be more vigilant in stamping it out.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

Whilst I fully expect to be totally ignored...

Certainly not by me; you raise valid points.

- in any physically possible plug/socket arrangement there is unlikely to be more than a single point of contact.

I think there are usually at least two (one on each side). However, w're not talking about the mathematician's 'point contact', of infinitely small area; the nature of the materials is such that the area of contact could be quite appreciable (certainly relative to 'infinitely small!). However, I agree that the area of contact could be relatively small.

To my mind, that makes it even more desirable that the standard should define where the 'relatively small areas of contact' are allowed to be. FatallyFlawed has described at least one type of socket (old MK ones) in which the contact is very close to the face of the socket (hence close to the plug body). In that situation, the contact area of the pin would not benefit much from the 'wiping' which I believe is meant to keep it clean and therefore maintain good contact - so I'm quite surprised that such a design of socket was allowed (assuming that it was).

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

John, If you had actually looked at the website originally referenced you would have seen that of the 37 sample ebay and Amazon listings ....

I thought I had 'actually looked at the website originally referenced', but since I only found 13 listings (10 eBay and 3 Amazon), rather than 37, maybe I wasn't looking at the right website?

....of illegal power cords shown only 5 have 2 pin sockets, the other 32 are three pin.

I only looked quickly at the 13 listings I saw, since I perceived the main point as merely 'proving that they exist'. What I hadn't noticed is that a least a couple of them had IEC 3-pin connectors on the other end, in which case it seems probable that they had 3-core cable. The ones with 3-pin ('cloverleaf') connectors I noticed were all designed for laptop PSUs, which I had always thought (perhaps incorrectly) were all Class II, such that I was, largely subconscioulsy, asuming that they probably had 2-core cables - but maybe I'm wrong.

Whatever, as I've said several times, this whole discussion is a bit irrelevant. I thing we are all agreed that (regardless of any discussions about what safety issues may exist), the selling of non-BS1363-compliant plugs in the UK is illegal and should not happen - and since these rogue products are so easily visually identified, the authorities should be enforcing the law more vigilantly.

I presume you've already done it, but if you simply 'reported' (in writing)to the authorities every example you find of such illegal items being offered for sale (probably with copies to appropriate parts of the media), I would have expected that to have achieved something - but I presume your attempts to do that must have been largely unsuccesful?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Monkeh]

The ones with 3-pin ('cloverleaf') connectors I noticed were all designed for laptop PSUs, which I had always thought (perhaps incorrectly) were all Class II, such that I was, largely subconscioulsy, asuming that they probably had 2-core cables - but maybe I'm wrong.

You are indeed. Many laptop PSUs sold in the UK have earthed heatsinks. Certainly Lenovo make two models in order to do so.

A C5 must have an earth connected, otherwise it could be connected to a Class I device and not provide an earth.

 

[JohnW2]

...such that I was, largely subconscioulsy, asuming that they probably had 2-core cables - but maybe I'm wrong.

You are indeed. Many laptop PSUs sold in the UK have earthed heatsinks. Certainly Lenovo make two models in order to do so. A C5 must have an earth connected, otherwise it could be connected to a Class I device and not provide an earth.

Fair enough. As I said, I was just explaining what, essentially 'subconsciously' led me not to consider that they might well have 3-core cables.

Whatever, I still think that the unlawful selling of obvioulsy non-BS1363-compliant products should be better enforced by the authorities.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It would need a fuse, though...

True.

Wall-warts don't, but unless that plug is sliced open we can't be sure that it doesn't have a non-replaceable fuse.

 

[FatallyFlawed]

It would need a fuse, though...

True.

Wall-warts don't, but unless that plug is sliced open we can't be sure that it doesn't have a non-replaceable fuse.

True, but a fused plug is defined in BS 1363 as "a plug having provision for a replaceable cartridge fuse link" and the latter must be to BS 1362, so it really does not matter. The pictures posted by timtheenchanter at the top of page 2 show clearly that, uless it is a Tardis plug, there is not a BS 1362 fuse in there (other than a blown one connected between line and earth).

 

[FatallyFlawed]

John, If you had actually looked at the website originally referenced you would have seen that of the 37 sample ebay and Amazon listings ....

I thought I had 'actually looked at the website originally referenced', but since I only found 13 listings (10 eBay and 3 Amazon), rather than 37, maybe I wasn't looking at the right website?
Kind Regards, John.

Sounds like you only looked at the first of three pages of ebay sample listings.

 

[FatallyFlawed]

"There's always the fact that the pins do not comply to the form stated by BS1363 and could cause damage to the receptive contacts in the socket."

AND:

"I'm not talking about the material, but the dimensions and profile. Also, BS1363 requires testing to prove the material used for the ISOD and/or sleeving on the live pins does not cause excessive wear to any part of the socket."

I've been thinking about that. Another example of making sure only fully compliant and tested plugs are inserted into sockets. Of course, that is as it should be, but it rather emphasizes the nonsense of allowing completely untested and unregulated socket covers to be marketed freely.

We already know that many of these have oversize pins which could permanently damage a socket, but I had not thought that they could also be made of abrasive material, after all that would increase their friction and make them harder for a child to remove!

(Hope no socket cover "designers" are reading this.)

 

[JohnW2]

Sounds like you only looked at the first of three pages of ebay sample listings.

Ah, that would be it - I just went to the page as directed, and didn't notice the links to other pages at the bottom!

Having now found all the pages, it's interesting to see that all the presumed fuseless ones are being marketed directly from Hong Kong, whereas most/all of the fused ones with partially sleeved earth pins appear to be being sold within the UK.

As I keep saying, the common feature of all these is that they are immediately visually identifiable as being non-compliant with BS1363, so the authorities have no excuse for not dealing with any cases which are brought to, or come to, their attention. Most detection of 'counterfeits' requires far more expertise or technology than these do!

Kind Regards, John.