courses to update from 16th to 17th edition

[oeeeeeeg]

Anyone know the best options available to update oeeeeeeg juniors 16th edition? are the one day courses sufficient or should he be looking at longer ones?
Also, he`s not currently working (on with an agency but nothing doing at the moment) If he applies for JSA can he get financial help with the course costs?
Cheers.

 

[oharaf]

How goos is his knowledge of 16th? TBH there are not that many changes the one day course will probably be enough. He may be able to get funding, he needs to ask when he goes in next, as it would improve his chances of work then he may have a good case. Then again the CONDEM's have probably axed that funding already

 

[spark1]

you are correct in that one----all such funding has been suspended to at least some time following the big bombshell cuts anouncement in October

 

[dingbat]

The notion of an update course was an unfortunate gaffe by City & Guilds. As very few electricians even know how to use the regs book, the idea that a one-day course will equip you to understand what the 17th Edition entails is ambitious indeed.

For many electricians, all they want is to pass an exam, regardless of what they actually understand.

So, your lad would benefit from doing the full course, not just the update, but beware, all courses are not the same. You should talk to the training providers and ask them what they actually do - if the answer is loads of past papers then that's because it is easier for the lecturers. You need structured training from lecturers who are experienced, articulate and engaged and the time to find this out is before booking.

 

[oeeeeeeg]

Thanks for your help, will have a word with him then decide whether he does the one day or three day course.
Cheers.

 

[MalcofArabia]

If you have the 16th edition BS7671-2001 then you only need to take the one day course, the old 2381 course. Everything prior to that is the 3 day course.

Every centre will though need proof of what 16th qualification he as.

Check with the job centre about funding, though there have been some major cuts they still fund courses for people if you prove that getting this qualification will get you back into work, ie jobs asking for 17th edition, it may also be worth while if given the funding to push for the 2391-10 if he hasn't got that

They come under this wonderful banner and your local jobcentre will have information or a contact in your local area

Economic Development Manager/Rapid Response Service Manager

And then ask for a

Jobhcentre Plus Rapid Response training application via Next Steps

I know this works as a few of my old lads did the same. Good luck

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

If they have level 3 at 2330 they only need take the 2382-20 day course too.
The 2382 course and exam are there to help guide you around the BS7671:2008 book. At best some knowledge will stick as it should, but after that all the exam proves is you know how to flick through the big red book and find relevant requirements.

 

[dingbat]

If you have the 16th edition BS7671-2001 then you only need to take the one day course...

If they have level 3 at 2330 they only need take the 2382-20 day course too.

The one-day (we deliver it over two days, at the same price) is, I believe, an inferior option and, as I said, an error on the part of City & Guilds. Few electricians understand the regulations and an 'update' to more stuff they don't understand hardly makes any sense.

The 2382 course and exam are there to help guide you around the BS7671:2008 book. At best some knowledge will stick as it should, but after that all the exam proves is you know how to flick through the big red book and find relevant requirements.

A pertinent comment. If you do a three-day course, this is a likely outcome. We deliver the 2382-10 over five days (at the same price others charge for three days) and we work the students hard. It's not about passing exams, it's about learning.

To give you an idea, unlike most centres we deliver eight hours actual contact per day (that's 8-5, with two short breaks and a 30-minute lunch) and set homework, which is examined the next day. Contract this with a typical course, starting around nine-ish, having ill-defined breaks, an hour for lunch and finishing by four over three days.

As I suggested, speak to the trainers and find out what you actually get for your money. Malc's advice about funding is very sound - there is a lot of money available for training, but you may need to jump through hoops to get it. Persevere though - a free course has to be a good thing, eh?

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

But saying that, five days is hardly enough to learn BS7671:2008 either and the way the courses are regulated, does not mean you have an underpinning knowledge prior to being enrolled/submitted on these courses.
No disrespect to the course you run, just personal experience.
These course show you how to find yourself around the big red book and pass the exam!
I was given a laminated sheet with all the chapters and chapter headings printed on it and was allowed to tab my book up, no one questioned me when I took these in to the exam room.

 

[ericmark]

As far as I was aware the update is about the exam not the course. If you have the C&G exam for 16th Edition taken after the BS7671:2001 came out then you can take up-date which is a shorter exam.

However one would hope 2 years after the BS7671:2008 was introduced most electricians would have done the update and I know my local college stopped the update over a year ago as numbers had dropped and now only offer the full course.

The exam content has changed also as when I took the exam there were no updated guides so questions from the guides were not included.

However the exam shows only that one can read the book. It does not test one as an electrician. Questions which ask what different names are given to a person who can look after other peoples safety to those who only look after their own safety to my mine are totally pointless. Does the name really matter? The difference between Skilled and Competent persons is made a mockery of when one refers to being a member of a Competent persons scheme.

The same with questions on Appendix 1 and 2 all they do is show you can read a book. I do see the point is forcing people to read the book as there have been some far reaching changes but the exam layout does not test understanding but only the ability to read.

To pass because of the time available one needs to know some of the answers without referring to book so to give enough time to answer silly questions on the Appendix section. But since the book has now been in use for 2 years one would expect most electricians could take the exam without any course. When it first came out then yes to select all the changes one did need some guidance but now after having used it for 2 years think that's no longer required until Amendment 1 comes out next year.

If the questions were worded like this:-
With no RCD fitted when adding a socket for a freezer using cable to BS8436 which of the following is correct.

1) A RCD socket is required.
2) A non RCD socket can be fitted if marked freezer only.
3) The consumer unit will need to have a RCD added to protect the cable.
4) A RCD FCU will be required to supply the new cable.

If that was the way the questions were asked then it would require one to understand what one was reading but luckily for many taking the exam one does not need to show you understand one only has to prove one can read.

 

[MalcofArabia]

I think like Ericmark, we must be the old school. I remember when I did my apprenticeship the guy who trained me never had a qualification to his name. He come up through being a mate to an electrician onto an approved one. This guy could make conduit sing, trunking dance and I've never seen pyro dressed like it, and still haven't

He always told me, as I was one of the new breed who in the 70's went to college and got qualifications, that all the qualifications in the world son won't make you a good sparks but it should help. The best guide to a good sparks for him was someone who when asked, who did that job you should be proud enough to say I did.

Times have changed and for the better that is another debate. We now have to have nurses who have degrees !!! and can get degrees in such subjects as Yacht maintenance and Pottery. Give me strength.

It's amazing that during all this regulations, qualifications and such I have seen more cowboys, poor sparks and downright idiots in our trade than I ever saw 30 yrs ago.

I'm still a great believer that we lost tradesman with apprenticeships and our industry. where I live in kent I know quite a few older guys than me who were sparks down the mine, these guys are phenomenal in their knowledge and they still mourn the fact that there is no one they can pass that knowledge onto in a proper apprenticeships

It's a sad day but as a country we only have ourselves to blame.

 

[dingbat]

But saying that, five days is hardly enough to learn BS7671:2008 either and the way the courses are regulated, does not mean you have an underpinning knowledge prior to being enrolled/submitted on these courses.

You are quite right. Anybody can book on the course, which never seems correct.

No disrespect to the course you run, just personal experience.
These course show you how to find yourself around the big red book and pass the exam!

None taken. And whilst we work hard to instill some knowledge, we also acknowledge that many pass the exam with only a shallow understanding.

I was given a laminated sheet with all the chapters and chapter headings printed on it...

We call that page three!

...and was allowed to tab my book up, no one questioned me when I took these in to the exam room.

We discourage students from using tabs and until early in 2008 it was a widely ignored C&G requirement that books were unmarked.

 

[dingbat]

st some observations.

You are all quite right when you suggest that the craft and pride in the job seem to have gone - in this as in so many disciplines

The raw material seem to be in scarce supply, in regards to youngsters willing to apply themselves and learn a trade and to companies seeing any benefit in taking on apprentices. Many advances in the building trades seek to reduce the need for understanding, with plug'n'play equipment in all areas requiring just fitters and not technicians. People no longer have job security and young people have ambitions higher than their ability, so often leave companies to set up on their own having learned enough to just get by.

But one thing hasn't changed in all those years - electricians have rarely understood the regulations to which they claim they have worked. In fact those who do the worst in class and in the exam are often time-served electricians!

Sadly, the progressive decrease in tuition required to gain the level III qualifications hasn't helped and we regularly get supposedly recently qualified electricians who have no understanding of what the regulations mean, nor how they are structured. Ohm's Law in particular (astonishing as it may seem) appears to be thought unnecessarily complex by many - we're thinking of having it repealed.

And whilst we strive to instill an understanding of these rules, it is very much the case that one can gain a pass just by being an agile reader. I don't see this changing in the near future, so long as qualifications are deemed more important than true ability, but we do what we can, eh?

 

[ricicle]

When I did my 2391 a few years ago I was surprised by the amount of Electricians on the course (who had come in their sign-written vans so were out and about) who didn't have a clue what they were doing, lacked understanding of the fundamentals, and seemed to be blissfully un-aware as to how little they did know !

And these guys are charging for their services !!

 

[MalcofArabia]

Quite right Dingbat vastly over rated this ohms law stuff.

But isn't the 17th edition just a part of an overall package when it comes to training and understanding what is needed to be an electrician. Just as the 2391-10 or whatever qualification now seems to be the industries flavour of the day.

I was always under the impression that wether it was the 1 day or the 3 day course they were both designed as an aid to navigate through the regs. No one is expected to memorise the regs au fait, but you are expected to be able to use the regs like a tool and to interpret it as such, and that means being able to locate the relevant reg.

Like most things in life people are split into lazy sos and so and achievers. Does it matter if it was a 3 day or a 30 day course, if that lazy sos and so is just going to do enough to get through then that is what he will do.

I think the City & guilds introduced this 1 day "refresher" for those that took the 2381 and proved they had an under standing of the regulations, while the 3 day course is designed perhaps not at qualified electricians but other trades, such as plumbers and kitchen fitters, who can still work on electrics if they are certified with a scheme!! now let's get started on that