Cracks in new render on bathroom wall?

[Micilin]

It will get harder as it cures, but it will not adhere any better. If anything it will lift off the background as it dries.

So, get what you can off now. Those cracks are not hairline cracks I'm afraid.

 

[Albumen]

It will get harder as it cures, but it will not adhere any better. If anything it will lift off the background as it dries.

So, get what you can off now. Those cracks are not hairline cracks I'm afraid.

I'm getting some very good advice here, thanks folks. I appreciate it.

I was tending towards the 'oh a few cracks aren't going to be a problem, it's probably sound' view. But it's looking like that's not the case and I have to face up to:

1. Telling the plasterer he's not getting paid. I'm hopeless at confrontation.

2. Deciding what to do next.

I'll take it off. I don't think it's going to be an issue, and if I get the chance to do it soon it should be relatively pain free.

In a former life I laboured for a plasterer for a year or so. Bought a float and hawk and did a bit. Never bother anymore cause I can't get a decent finish. And on the one occasion I tried sand and cement render thought - 'this is a bit tricky than browning'. As the whole lot fell off!!

But I wouldn't mind having a go at this wall if there is a decent alternative.

The background is red brickwork, 1920s semi so lime mortar (?). The brickwork is pretty sound. I want this to be as sound as a swimming pool, or the showers in a sports centre or something like that. In 50 years time I want my son to be lying in my £1000 bath and say to himself 'I'm glad dad made such a good job of this bathroom'.

So, for an dedicated amateur, who isn't a complete beginner, is there a material which can provide the strength, durability and water resistance of s/c, but is a bit easier to handle? I'm fine at lining up battens and so on.

I'm not intending to put heavy marble tiles on or anything like that. Just average 20x20 ceramics or something. There isn't, and won't be, any pipework hidden behind the tiles. It's a deck mounted bath/shower mixer, so not too many fixings, just a shower riser.

Any advice gratefully received.

 

[joe-90]

You do your rendering in two coats. That way it isn't too heavy and doesn't slump to the floor. Remember to use PVA or SBR to stop the bricks sucking the moisture out of your mix.

 

[roughcaster]

I'm in total agreement with Micilin,, the cracks in the render are not small/thin hairline cracks. To me, they seem to be the type of crack you get when the coat is put onto a dry surface, or it's too thick/heavy, "slumping". I don't think he did scratch coat first. If you look at the bottom of the second pic, you can see how thick the render is, and not a sign of a scratch coat at the bottom. The actual "scratcing" of the render is horrendous in my opinion,,,, overkill!!. I know it's going to be tiled over, but it's way over the top. If it had been left off of the float, it would have been perfect. I know it's easy to criticise other peoples work,, but when you, "the customer" suspect something's not quite right with the job, and "prove it" with a photograph, we are allowed to give our honest opinion.
Don't ever ask him to scratch your back Mikey,, or he'll go right through to the bone!!

 

[Albumen]

This plasterer was reccomended by another youngish chap who did some other work in the bathroom which I'm very happy with. Infact the younger one served his time with the one who did the rendering.

I'm getting the impression that rendering is something plasterers don't do much and don't like doing. The younger one passed the job on to the older one. When he came round to look at the job and I said that I thought sand and cement was the best substrate for tiles in a bathroom he disagreed. 'But it's your house...' I think both of them had little interest in the job. I wish he'd just said he didn't want to do it.

And thinking about it, an 'indoor' plasterer these days will hardly ever do rendering, probably? It's probably a bit like when I get asked to play the mandolin (I'm a professional guitarist really). I've got a mandolin and know where the notes are but it's really not what I do.

So it looks like finding a specialist. Or DIY. There's a company, who appear to be national, but just happen to be based in Leeds, where I am, who seem to be highly specialised in renders. http://www.avantcoatings.co.uk/

They certainly look as though they've got the technical side down, but might be overkill for my job. My bathroom's probably too small for them.

Does anybody know anyone round West Yorkshire? Or even further afield. I'm not a cheapskate. I've worked in the manual trades and I know it's hard work and expect to pay money, which I've got. I never, up till now, quibble about bills.

A specialist who does things like local authority showers or stuff like that. Who'll do it once, right, to last forever.

Thanks.

 

[1john]

Couple of things here -

1 - get it off while it's still softish, it will get harder.

2 - dont be concerned about the plasterer, tell him what's happened, ask him to look at it really soon explaining that you want to remove it before it sets much more and also inform him that you would like him to do it again, properly, then you will pay him. Out of this, two things will happen, he will do it again, and if you are watchful, perhaps get it right, secondly, he will say he doesn't want to do it again and you dont need to pay him.

Have you considered the alternative of batten and tile backer board over the wall, this way you can get the wall very true and straight, although i cant tell if you have the room. 2x1 tanalised battons on 400mm centers and fixed every 400 / 600mm with packing out to suit. If there is any bounce after this is done or large gaps where it's been packed then I like to apply dome expanding foam from one side of the batten down the length, not too much and let it expand it's way out the other side.

This is a job that any DIYer should be able to manage with time patience and a good level and straight edge.

 

[Micilin]

john's approach to the plasterer seems reasonable to me.


I am sorry to say this, but it should not be too hard to make a good job of this, if you can plaster - it is not a specialist job.

The principles are the same - well prepared background, don't put too much on at once, key between coats and keep everything plumb and square - it would be the same with hardwall or bonding just that the material may be a bit different in it's prpoperties. Having outside rendering experience is really nothing to do with it. I'd happily use sand and cement inside and out all day long, if I could !


I know our trade is deteriorating, but this is basic bread and butter stuff here, to be honest.


I'm not saying that it would not be difficult for a DIY neebie, and I'm not being dismissive , but your man has presented himself as a plasterer and as such should have done better. If he said S/c was not suitable for tiling then he is talking out of an orifice not normally associated with verbal communication.


Edit - just to be clear, and not sound like a complete tit, I'm not saying that anyone should be able to float up a room for tiling because it is a doddle. It is possibly beyond someone with little or no plastering experience. I am saying that if a man presents himself as a tradesman , accepts a price for doing the job, and takes it on, then he should leave you with a proper job, this should be routine work for him.

 

[Albumen]

Thanks.

I'm not too worried about the plasterer. If he doesn't get paid and doesn't do the job he's lost the price of half a dozen bags of s/c and 4 hours of his time, which is how long he was here. He quoted £150 for 4.6 sq meters, by the way.

Really I want him to not do it again. I don't think he's committed to the job. I would expect to actually be here and watch him doing it, to be honest. I'd rather get somebody who just does rendering. Though I'd expect a detailed spec of how they'll do it, using what materials, in which order etc. AND I'd watch them.

Which is why I'm thinking about DIY.

I'd rather have s/c than backerboard. I like solid things, and it would bring the whole wall out a bit and then there's windows and toilets and stuff.

It's just the actual handling of the render that I'm unconfident of. Setting out with battens and such like I can spend as much time as I like getting right, and will. In civil engineering I used to get massive concrete structures accurate to a couple of mill (however much shouting at the shuttering joiners it took!!). It's just the actual application of the render that worries me. And I know only too well that you can't play with it like you can with browning.

 

[Micilin]

If you are going to give it a go, remember that you can get your scratch coats out bit by bit until they are as near as dammit, then you will leave yourself with as little work as possible in the final coat.




You'll have all the time in the world with the iinitial scratching out coats , as long as you keep it scratched before it starts to dry or set, then you can put another bit on as needed.

If you have waterproof in the scratch coat, then you will have a lot of time with your final coat - so a coat of 6-8 mm or 10 at most will not slump, and it will set for you even if it looks at first like it never will.

If you are tiling, as long as it is flat, plumb etc you don't need it rubbed up perfect as you would for painting.

Your bathroom walls are not big, and there is no reason why you can't do one at a time to make it easier to handle .

 

[Albumen]

Or you could drive up from Bedfordshire and do it for me <g>

Come on, day out in sunny Leeds. Pint or 2 of Tetley's at lunchtime. I'll labour for you and wash up. What more could you ask for? We've got running water, electric and everyfink up north now you know.

 

[Micilin]

Or you could drive up from Bedfordshire and do it for me <g>

Come on, day out in sunny Leeds. Pint or 2 of Tetley's at lunchtime. I'll labour for you and wash up. What more could you ask for? We've got running water, electric and everyfink up north now you know.

Beds to Leeds in my old van ......... two days just to get there.

 

[Albumen]

More pics. This is the bottom 18" or so of the wall, the unrendered bit behind where the bath will be.

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• 20 Jun 2010
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So you can see old bricks, wide joints and unlike the facing bricks on the outside of the house (which are hard sods, almost engineering bricks) pretty soft and absorbant. I just threw an egg cup of water over it and it went in pretty fast. Yet I can't see any evidence of any water/PVA having gone on the wall. I'd expect to see lots of 'runs'. I remember plasterers giving walls, especially old walls, a pretty good 'degging' as they seemed to call it, before any browing went on.

The annoying thing is I did a lot of prep for him. A lot more than most householders would. I cut a nice clean edge with an angle grinder (yummy, nice and dusty). The floor was clear, I ran a hose out to the front of the house, dragged the bath well clear and covered it in blankets, got dust sheets out, covered the open ends of plumbing and so on. In other words all the things that a good labourer would do, short of actually mixing. I marked the wall up saying where I wanted the render to start, but he ignored that and at one point it's too high, which is why I haven't paid him yet. And because he didn't do that I haven't fixed the bath so I've had to replumb the bath, rerunning the supplies and waste. Right in the middle of the room.

Parts of it might well be OK. But given how badly other parts of it have cracked, and that there already seem to be blown patches, I haven't got confidence. And confidence is what I want. The tiles I'm looking at (correcting, my wife is looking at) are going to add up to £900. If they start coming off in 5 years I'll be well miffed, as no doubt I won't be able to get any more. And I'm b*****d if I'm goint to buy and store 5 square ms at £60/m2 just 'in case'.

Grrrr

 

[joe-90]

The guy is rubbish tell him to leave.

Do it yourself using battens. Get them all dead level and fill the bays they create.

Rule off with a straight edge then remove the battens. You'll get a spot-on job.

 

[roughcaster]

The guy is rubbish tell him to leave.

Do it yourself using battens. Get them all dead level and fill the bays they create.

Rule off with a straight edge then remove the battens. You'll get a spot-on job.

Joe's right,, especially with a bath being fitted against the wall.

 

[Albumen]

Thanks. I told him several times that waterproof was a priority. He said he added it but as it's now full of cracks it's not waterproof, obviously.

I also said I wanted it square and straight, so the bath would be a snug fit. He said it would be ok. When I rung him the night before and asked him if he had a builders square he said not.

So I left a part sheet of ply out which I knew had a square corner. But on my way home picked up one of those folding 48" square things from Screwfix. It was only £24, and will come in handy for all sort of things. But I did think to myself - 'why hasn't he got one of these'. I checked it. To be fair it's not bad. Even so it goes in a bit along the short end.