Daily rate or fixed quote on loft conversion?

[datadiyer]

Hi all,

I’m have a loft conversion done on a traditional build semi-detached 1930’s house. I am currently getting quotes which are around the £34000 mark. One quote I’m interested in is a daily rate for 2 x builders/chippies who are highly recommended @£150 a day each (labour only). I don’t know if this is a good deal or not. I’m trying to work out what materials would be needed and have come up with the following. It’s not exhaustive obviously but just wondered if anyone could guess even if this would work out cheaper than a quote of say £34000. The 2 chippies reckon 6 weeks to complete which works out at £9000 labour, hence my focus on materials.

· Scaffolding

· Build up gable in blockwork with 65mm cavity insulation

· Sand & cement to render blockwork

· Extra tiles

· Breathable membrane

· Roof battens

· 2 x RSJ’s: Ridge beam 254 x 146 UB37 x 5000mm & Chimney support beam 178 x 102 UB19 x 5700mm

· Padstones for new steel support sections

· Thermabate cavity closers

· 22mm Weyroc boarding to first floor 30 m2

· Fibreglass quilt: horizontal; 300 mm thick 25 m2

· Celotex horizontal; 165 mm thick

· Staircase (double winder)

· Fibreglass roof

· 2 Windows: 1200mx600mm and 1200mm x 1500mm

· Electrical cabling

· Plasterboard for ceilings, 12.5mm (77m2)

· Plaster for ceilings

· Plasterboard for walls, 12.5mm (52m2)

· Plaster for walls

· Skirting board

· Architraves

· Possibly fire doors x 5 & ironmongery

· Bathroom furniture and tiles

· Skips

View media item 100271View media item 100272

 

[big-all]

day rate = 6hrs 7 hrs 8hrs 9 hrs ???
travel time organizing materials extra or included ???
4 day 5 days 6 day 7 days a week ??
6 week 12 week 18 weeks ??? jobs overrun
you supply materials day rate may go up ???
including or excluding vat ??
holidays or sick days as paid days ??
materials short and your fault £300 a day to be idle if nothing to do
day rate usually means less security with all risks at your door
price for the job incentive to get it done

 

[datadiyer]

day rate = 6hrs 7 hrs 8hrs 9 hrs ???
travel time organizing materials extra or included ???
4 day 5 days 6 day 7 days a week ??
6 week 12 week 18 weeks ??? jobs overrun
you supply materials day rate may go up ???
including or excluding vat ??
holidays or sick days as paid days ??
materials short and your fault £300 a day to be idle if nothing to do
day rate usually means less security with all risks at your door
price for the job incentive to get it done

day rate = 6hrs 7 hrs 8hrs 9 hrs ???
travel time organizing materials extra or included ???
4 day 5 days 6 day 7 days a week ??
6 week 12 week 18 weeks ??? jobs overrun
you supply materials day rate may go up ???
including or excluding vat ??
holidays or sick days as paid days ??
materials short and your fault £300 a day to be idle if nothing to do
day rate usually means less security with all risks at your door
price for the job incentive to get it done

Thanks for reply,

Sorry, should have been more specific:
7 hour day.
I order materials (my fault if I don't get them on site on time).
5 days a week.
Including VAT.
I don't pay for sick, holidays or rainy days.

I may be wrong, but I don't think it's often to get a chippy to charge a daily rate. What I have experienced are jobs costing a fixed amount which may be over the top in order to account for unforseen circumstances. I don't know if this deal is too good an opportunity to turn down. All these terms are verbal but i'd obviously draft up a contract.
Surely materials won't cost £25000 (£34000-£9000)?

 

[Doggit]

No floorboards specified. Cost it out, and add 50% for contingencies.
How experienced are the day rate guys, and although they've quoted for 6 weeks, are they prepared to set a limit, (or a rate reduction for going over) with the provision of a bonus for completion on time.

Are they leaving you to source materials, and will they give you notice of what they want; as Big-all says, they'll still expect to get paid if materials aren't on site for them. Do you have a good builders merchant that can drop things off quickly, and will you be around to get things the need, or are you at work all day.

You won't have to pay them sick days or hoidays if they are on a day rate, but knowing they'll do a solid days work is reassuring, but only as long as they'll be able to reach the 6 weeks deadline. The caveat is that if it's a 6 hour day, then they're expensive, as a couple of hours extra each day would get the job done quicker.

More importantly, have you seen their work, as recommendations aren't always worth much. How do they want paying, is there going to be any hold back payment, will they sign a contract so you both know where you stand.

Can they tile, are there any jobs they've got to sub out, and will those men be available when required. Will they charge you for their time, even if the subbies can't get onto the job.

Will they disapear off site to do other jobs, and what happens if it rains etc, and they can't work.

At then end of it, you need to talk to them, and mention your concerns, and to ask them why they are prepared to work this way, rather than quoting for the whole job as others have.

 

[^woody^]

I'll come and do it on a day rate. I'll be pottering about for the next two years

 

[chappers]

They won't but I also bet the labour won't come I at £9000 either.
Who sorts out all those bits and pieces you need for the job that are unaccountable, where you just have to pop off to the merchants who's supplying fixings and sundry iron work etc.
Who is doing your electrics, plumbing plastering etc.
I do some day work and when I do I always put in a decent shift and I have done a couple of lofts on a day rate but usually where the client is around all the time and I know they will go fetch stuff, usually for people I have worked for before or know well.
Generally a loft conversion isn't something I would recommend you put out to tender on a day rate unless you are experienced and can manage the job.

 

[datadiyer]

No floorboards specified. Cost it out, and add 50% for contingencies.
How experienced are the day rate guys, and although they've quoted for 6 weeks, are they prepared to set a limit, (or a rate reduction for going over) with the provision of a bonus for completion on time.

Are they leaving you to source materials, and will they give you notice of what they want; as Big-all says, they'll still expect to get paid if materials aren't on site for them. Do you have a good builders merchant that can drop things off quickly, and will you be around to get things the need, or are you at work all day.

You won't have to pay them sick days or hoidays if they are on a day rate, but knowing they'll do a solid days work is reassuring, but only as long as they'll be able to reach the 6 weeks deadline. The caveat is that if it's a 6 hour day, then they're expensive, as a couple of hours extra each day would get the job done quicker.

More importantly, have you seen their work, as recommendations aren't always worth much. How do they want paying, is there going to be any hold back payment, will they sign a contract so you both know where you stand.

Can they tile, are there any jobs they've got to sub out, and will those men be available when required. Will they charge you for their time, even if the subbies can't get onto the job.

Will they disapear off site to do other jobs, and what happens if it rains etc, and they can't work.

At then end of it, you need to talk to them, and mention your concerns, and to ask them why they are prepared to work this way, rather than quoting for the whole job as others have.

Hi Doggit,
They've said it could take 6 weeks (depending on unforseen's I guess) and am happy to take their word on that. If I don't see much progress or some slacking in say 3 weeks I can always send them packing. I've seen one of their previous loft conversions, the owners are more than happy with the work they did. I didn't discuss costs/timescales with owners TBH but they were well pleased. They are happy to sign a contract and I will be paying them cash. The bigger jobs they have previously done, they have subbed out to electricians etc as they are basically a group of tradesmen who as work together. I would hope that while the subbies are getting on with it then either they won't be on the job (unless they have work to do) and will put this in contract. They don't get paid if it rains. The reason they didn't want to work to a set price is because the guy who introduced me to these chippies is a family friend and I trust him implicitly. Gotta be worth a punt eh?

 

[datadiyer]

They won't but I also bet the labour won't come I at £9000 either.
Who sorts out all those bits and pieces you need for the job that are unaccountable, where you just have to pop off to the merchants who's supplying fixings and sundry iron work etc.
Who is doing your electrics, plumbing plastering etc.
I do some day work and when I do I always put in a decent shift and I have done a couple of lofts on a day rate but usually where the client is around all the time and I know they will go fetch stuff, usually for people I have worked for before or know well.
Generally a loft conversion isn't something I would recommend you put out to tender on a day rate unless you are experienced and can manage the job.

Hi Chappers,
I don't work and am familiar with most building materials/fixings etc so I would be on site all the time so can fetch materials on demand. Really good local merchants around me also with next day, sometimes same day delivery. The chippies work with electrics/plumbers/plasterers etc so that's covered. I know it can be a bit of a gamble but I suppose if we agree firmly on a contract, it could financially beneficial.

 

[datadiyer]

I'd probably do the whole en-suite myself also as it's not a rip out, just a clean install.

 

[big-all]

as an aside
never ever take recommendations from trust the butcher dot com or my plumbing needs rodding ooer misses type web sites as they are money led with virtually no effort spent on checking the trader or the quality off there work
they will often "mute " any negative veiws and not post them at all if they are against those that pay the bills
they can also allow unvetted fully positive reviews for work never done to be let through

 

[noseall]

To the OP: You forgot to include foul drainage and a crane.

 

[^woody^]

In all seriousness, daywork is a licence to make money.

Only ever pay daywork if you know and trust the contractor well, and are sure that you will be getting a full day's work and the work will be finished in as few a days as possible.

 

[garyo]

To the OP: You forgot to include foul drainage and a crane.

That's what I was thinking having just done it myself... that's a 200KG steel - you'll need a crane or ask your SE to design a two part beam (have you factored SE costs). Also consider party wall act costs. Building regulations fees. Toilet hire?

 

[noseall]

In all seriousness, daywork is a licence to make money
.

Lol! I only ever make a sensible profit on price work. Day rate is gash.

I spent a good chunk of this year working for mates. Fastest way to lose money.

 

[^woody^]

I spent a good chunk of this year working for mates. Fastest way to lose money.

I like friends like you. What you doing for the next two weeks?

I'll re-phrase my comment to "In all seriousness, daywork is a licence to make money for the unscrupulous".