Dehumidifier or PIV system

Joined
3 Feb 2009
Messages
204
Reaction score
1
Location
Buckinghamshire
Country
United Kingdom
I have been looking at ways of reducing condensation on my windows and reducing humidity levels throughout the property.

I have a 65 square meter bungalow.

Besides fitting an extractor fan in the bathroom and Kitchen I was going to buy a dehumidifier but came across PIV systems. Some have an option to heat the air too.

Anyone have a PIV system fitted in their property? I would appreciate some feedback regarding pros and cons.
 
Sponsored Links
Where do you think the excess water comes from?

Is there a plumbing or roof leak?

Does the bathroom extractor fan work effectively?

Is wet washing draped over radiators?
 
It appears to be a problem with these bungalows as my neighbours have the problem too.
It has a double layer of loft insulation (before I moved here).
It does have soffit ventillators fitted along their entire length, air can move freely from the vents to the loft space.
The roof is in good condition and no leaks.
No plumbing leaks.
I have electric storage heaters and do not dry my clothes near them.
The utility room has no heating and that is where I do my ironing and drying in the colder months. draught excluders fitted around the doors.
I shower with the bathroom window open and leave it open with the bathroom door closed, draught excluder fitted.
I am looking into fitting an extractor fan in the bathroom and Kitchen.

I have a couple of humidity gauges in different rooms and it is usually around 58% to 65%
 
Sponsored Links
If you fit suitable fans to the bathroom and kitchen, such as contstant trickle units, and take some other basic moisture prevention measures, then you might find that this is enough.

Dehumidifiers are impractical for long term use, and PP fans are for preventing mould build up and wont prevent condensation.
 
You can't dry clothes indoors and avoid condensation, ventilation passive or mechanical is needed, but both pointless if you dry clothes indoors, tumble dryer will be cheaper than dehumidifier in the long run as you avoid damage to building and yourself caused by damp air.
 
We run a dehumidifier for around 2 hours per day. Extractor fan in bathroom is one of those terrible wall jobbies, and no extractor in the kitchen. Those 2 hours a day keeps the house around 55%. Its a desiccant dehumidifier as well so produces a reasonable amount of heat as part of its process so it is more efficient that we first though, running its about 350W.
 
I can't speak for dehumidifers (never tried one), but I was in a similar position as the OP, with a 2-bed bungalow, except that I already had an extractor hood in the kitchen, a bathroom extractor, condensing tumble dryer and I made use of the night vent lock position on the windows. Between October and April, every window would have excessive condensation overnight.

I fitted a PIV unit in the loft, and the overnight window condensation was completely gone within a couple of days. I've now had the unit fitted for around 18 months and I'm very happy with it (it's a Nuaire Drimaster). My gas usage for heating has actually decreased, which I suspect is a combination of it requiring less energy to heat "drier" air, plus I now have controlled ventilation, rather than leaving windows open and cranking the heating up further. The only time I can get condensation forming is if I shut the door to a room, and close the cellular blinds completely, and even then it's about 1cm strip of light mist, and only on the old mid-90s double glazed units. Before PIV, the blinds could be open, all doors open, allowing good air circulation, and water would be dripping over 50% of the height of the panes, including on the newer low-e panes. If I bump up the speed of the PIV unit, I can even get rid of that 1cm strip, but then I'm over-ventilating for no real benefit.

So, it's PIV for me. I also considered MVHR - it's usually easy to fit in a bungalow; but the payback period was too high for me. PIV can be fitted for around £300. MVHR will be several thousand by the time that you've added in the unit, all the ducting, plus proper commissioning to balance flow rates. PIV commissioning is a matter of picking the correct speed based on building volume.

I don't have a heater on mine, and don't feel a need for it. You're supposed to install the diffuser a certain distance from any walls to avoid drafts (just check where your joists are - I had to compromise somewhat, but still within the recommended vent-to-wall distance for the speed I'm using). As you're using electricity to heat, it might make sense for you to get the heat option (you can always turn it off), but the flow rates aren't high enough to make much difference to temperature either way, although be aware that for the basic fans you can usually power them from the lighting circuit, whereas if you fit a heater you'll have to break into the socket ring.
 
Nuaire Company appear to have survived ok... Positive Input Ventilation (PIV)

NuAire people have been around since early 70's - survivors ??

A work colleague once had bad condensation problems in his bungalow kitchen, tried everything within reason, decent expelair extractor etc, then bought into this kit
http://www.nuaire.co.uk/our-products/Residential/products?pt=1685
probably from mid to late 70's - Without the air heating - Just gently pressurising from the loft space. He always maintained that the kit cured his condensation problems, was it cost effective ?? Who knows, but it saved him much ear and heartache !!
He did have a supplementary wood burner, with a chain saw and permission to take fallen timber from nearby woods. Perhaps he blazed the cool air from the loft - he wouldn't agree to that.

-0-
 
I can't speak for dehumidifers (never tried one), but I was in a similar position as the OP, with a 2-bed bungalow, except that I already had an extractor hood in the kitchen, a bathroom extractor, condensing tumble dryer and I made use of the night vent lock position on the windows. Between October and April, every window would have excessive condensation overnight.

I fitted a PIV unit in the loft, and the overnight window condensation was completely gone within a couple of days. I've now had the unit fitted for around 18 months and I'm very happy with it (it's a Nuaire Drimaster). My gas usage for heating has actually decreased, which I suspect is a combination of it requiring less energy to heat "drier" air, plus I now have controlled ventilation, rather than leaving windows open and cranking the heating up further. The only time I can get condensation forming is if I shut the door to a room, and close the cellular blinds completely, and even then it's about 1cm strip of light mist, and only on the old mid-90s double glazed units. Before PIV, the blinds could be open, all doors open, allowing good air circulation, and water would be dripping over 50% of the height of the panes, including on the newer low-e panes. If I bump up the speed of the PIV unit, I can even get rid of that 1cm strip, but then I'm over-ventilating for no real benefit.

So, it's PIV for me. I also considered MVHR - it's usually easy to fit in a bungalow; but the payback period was too high for me. PIV can be fitted for around £300. MVHR will be several thousand by the time that you've added in the unit, all the ducting, plus proper commissioning to balance flow rates. PIV commissioning is a matter of picking the correct speed based on building volume.

I don't have a heater on mine, and don't feel a need for it. You're supposed to install the diffuser a certain distance from any walls to avoid drafts (just check where your joists are - I had to compromise somewhat, but still within the recommended vent-to-wall distance for the speed I'm using). As you're using electricity to heat, it might make sense for you to get the heat option (you can always turn it off), but the flow rates aren't high enough to make much difference to temperature either way, although be aware that for the basic fans you can usually power them from the lighting circuit, whereas if you fit a heater you'll have to break into the socket ring.

Thank-you for the detailed post which I have only just seen.
I went for a PIV with heat with controls in the diffuser. Installed it myself and paid an electrician to wire it into the socket ring.

The windows in all the rooms of this 2 bed bungalow would be soaking wet top to bottom in the mornings, I would have to go round 2 or 3 times and wring out the 2 cloths many times, then open the windows slightly to air the room and finish off drying the windows, which is not something I wanted to do in the colder months as it lets the heat out.
The day after turning the PIV on there was only condensation on the bottom 2 inches of the window of the room I slept it.
Since then there has been no condensation on any of the windows, quite amazing and I only have it on speed setting 2.
I may turn it down to speed setting 1 but want to test things as I am going to do a clothes wash and dry in the utility room tomorrow.
Setting 1 will only use 1.6 watts.
I had the heater set point in the middle setting for the first day and then turned it right down so it has not been activated since.
It is cool in the hallway but the heater would cost of £50 a month to run and it only tempers the incoming air.

I only fitted a trickle vent to one window, I do have 9 more if I need them but I read that some people regret fitting them because they let in extra noise.
The only downside is the hallway smells of loft :) Do you know what I mean?

Although I cannot say I have noticed the difference in air quality I am sure it is fresher than before installing the PIV.
The flow rate is 20 litres a second at the moment.
I used to get some black mould around the window reveals, luckily nowhere else.

How do you find it in the warmer months from April to September?
I ask because in those months I used to get white mould growing on my new furniture, bed, wardrobe, sideboard etc. Also anything kept in the bed drawers, wardrobe and desk would go mouldy, white mould. So I have had to empty all those places out, I hope to be able to put the stuff back in the drawers later in the year.

I think I will need the PIV to run 365 days a year but when the loft air is warmer than the bungalow air I wonder if this will cause the white mould to grow again. Not sure if the warmer air would also be more humid air.
I would be interested to hear your experience of the warmer months.

At the moment I have it on default setting.

"At loft temperatures below 19°C the unit will operate on
“Normal Operation Mode”.
At loft temperatures above 18 C but less than 24 C, the unit will
switch automatically to “Intelligent Heat Recovery Mode”.
At loft temperatures above 23°C the unit will switch itself automatically
to “Standby Mode”."
 
I have the Drimaster 365 model, so it runs all year round, and in the summer it moves a diverter flap to pull in air from outside, rather than the attic. I'm not convinced it actually makes that much difference compared to a standard Drimaster running in the mode with the >23C limit disabled, since the unit itself is sat in the warm/hot loft, and I'm pulling in air from a LapVent, which means that if the tiles are warm, the incoming air is warm anyway. However, the flow rates are so low that it doesn't cause overheating of the bungalow, just localised heating of the ceiling in an approx 1m radius around the diffuser.

I suspect that in your case, even if the unit switches off on hot days, it will come on overnight, so you still get forced air changes and hopefully keep overall humidity levels low enough to not cause a problem.

I haven't had any problems with mould anywhere since installing it. Prior to fitting it, and the catalyst for installing it, was the presence of mould/mildew on bed frame slats. I have concrete floors, so suspect that the air beneath the bed was cold enough for moisture to condense, similar to on the cold windows. This was cleaned up, and hasn't returned.

Give it a few months without the trickle vents. I fitted automatic humidity-responsive ones, and most of the time they stay shut in the bedrooms. The utility room needed them, but it's got a condensing dryer in there (they aren't perfect), and is also the furthest room from the PIV vent.

Regarding loft smells, I had installed it at the end of summer, and it was very strong to start with. It disappears with cold weather, and last summer wasn't nearly as bad. I retrofitted additional vents in the loft which I suspect has helped. I think it's the bituminous felt.
 
Many thanks for the reply.

Good point, in Summer when the loft heats up and the PIV goes into standby mode, it could still come on at night which would be enough to keep the air inside the bungalow fresh and moving about.

Like you, I have solid concrete floors (storage heating) and had not previously thought that it may be a contributing factor, but it makes sense now.

My Utility room is also furthest from the diffuser, the washer has a built in dryer and moisture is pushed out to the outside drain. It is not the best dryer I have ever used, I think stand alone ones are better at the job.

Yes, the smell is the Bitumen felt, I could not work out what the smell was :)

I am pleased you managed to sort out the mould and condensation problem.
 
I have had the dri-eco heat HC running for over 5 weeks now on flow rate 2.
I am pleased with the results so far.

Because it has been cold I have not had the windows open in January or February, not needed to.
Now as the outside temperature warms up I would normally open the lounge and bedroom windows occasionally during the day.

Is it OK to do that or should I keep the windows closed and let the drimaster carry on as it is?
What do you do during the warmer months?
 

DIYnot Local

Staff member

If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.

Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.


Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local

 
Sponsored Links
Back
Top