dirt and air in system (Meme21)

[Agile]

I am sorry but I have not had time to read throught all these postings so may have missed something.

So you have a new high power boiler fitted by someone who did not check the gas pressure and did not clean the system although a Magnaclean was fitted but you were not instructed on how to clean it.

Gas supplier did some work and this may have improved the supply pressure and I assume the installer has now commissioned the boiler as that was part of his quot to fit a new boiler.

You have now been shown how to clean it and will be able to do this every week until the amount of dirt reduces.

I am a little lost because I have lost track of what the problem is now. However, its not a question of "what option" to take! Its a question of which RGI has suggested the best solution to your problem ( whatever that is! ).

Certainly with 22 rads a 15-60 pump would usually be specified but set at "2".

Because I dont know what pump you have at the moment its difficult for me to advise what thats likely to cost but the pump to buy is about £80.

Is this a heat only boiler with no pump inside?

What is the non return valve supposed to correct?

Perhaps it would he helpful to consolidate the situation if you could list the issues and problems still to be resolved.

In any normal situation the installer would be responsible for managing all problem resolutions. It seems yours was rather lacking!

Tony

 

[DP]

The installer quoted to supply and fit 40cdi boiler, fit new flue, do pipework, fit wireless thermostat, flush radiators (but this wasn't a powerflush) and fit a Magnaclean. Really don't want to go back to fitter and would rather get someone else in.

Flush in this case is same as a service by some when they claim to have serviced the appliance without removing the boiler cover.

 

[Meme21]

Perhaps it would he helpful to consolidate the situation if you could list the issues and problems still to be resolved.

In any normal situation the installer would be responsible for managing all problem resolutions. It seems yours was rather lacking!

Tony

Hi Tony - yes my installer was rather lacking and not particularly pleasant.

Problems I now have:
1. A lot of air gurgling through the system, towel rails are very noisy due to the air - need venting daily.
2. Noisy pump (at least I think it's the pump, the noise is louder in downstairs rooms than in the airing cupboard where the pump is housed - as if the pipes are vibrating).
3. Several radiators taking up to one and a half hours to heat up and then are cold at the bottom. (I have to have the room stat set to 24C otherwise the boiler is switched off before these radiators start to heat and I have a very cold living room).
4. WB says I really should have an automatic non return valve.

And that in a nutshell is it.

I have a heat only boiler WB 40cdi (not a combi). Present pump is a 15/50. Still not quite sure how to clean the Magnaclean, but I will learn.

Thanks for advice

 

[twgas]

Hi Tony - yes my installer was rather lacking and not particularly pleasant.

Problems I now have:
1. A lot of air gurgling through the system, towel rails are very noisy due to the air - need venting daily.

Quite possibly due to incorrect installation.

2. Noisy pump (at least I think it's the pump, the noise is louder in downstairs rooms than in the airing cupboard where the pump is housed - as if the pipes are vibrating).

Also Quite possibly due to incorrect installation.

3. Several radiators taking up to one and a half hours to heat up and then are cold at the bottom. (I have to have the room stat set to 24C otherwise the boiler is switched off before these radiators start to heat and I have a very cold living room).

Also Quite possibly due to incorrect installation

4. WB says I really should have an automatic non return valve.

Suspect they mean a by-pass valve, or there are more problems to be revealed.

 

[Axel]

Probably no inhibitor in there either...

 

[JohnD]

Still not quite sure how to clean the Magnaclean, but I will learn.

if the installer ran off with the instruction booklet, you should still have a very large black ring spanner, and a small silver ring spanner.

put a plastic bowl under the Magnaclean to catch any spillage.

put some old newspapers on the work surface (the black sludge stains badly)

You shut the two valves where the pipes elbow into the Magnaclean body, using the small silver spanner; loosen the bleed screw on the cap to check that the valves are shut (if not water will squirt out), put the large ring spanner squarely on the knurled black cap of the Magnaclean (steady the body with your other hand unless you can clearly see that the pipes are firmly supported to the wall with tight pipe clamps) and unscrew the cap. Once started, unscrew it by hand. It takes quite a few turns. If water squirts out, screw it back up by hand and check those valves.

Otherwise, lift off the cap when it comes free. With the bar magnet that sticks down from the cap should come plastic sleeve (if it is loose, use your fingers to prevent it slipping off) which will probably be coated with black sludge. You have to take the plastic sleeve off the magnet to be able to get the sludge off.

You can either wash it off the sleeve down the sink, or scrape it into a jamjar if you want to see how much there is each time (the amount will reduce as the system gets cleaner and cleaner)

wipe the magnet and cap with kitchen roll, put the clean sleeve back on the magnet, put the cap back on the Magnaclean and tighten it by hand (do not use the spanner to tighten it). I like to turn it in the "opening" direction first to ensure it is in place and not cross-threaded

check that the bleed screw in the cap is shut, slowly open the bottom valve with the small spanner and watch for drips or leaks, if OK open the bleed screw to let any air out; then close it and open the other valve.

wipe dry with kitchen roll and watch for any drips before you finish. I put a loop of string through the holes in the handles of the spanners and bleed key and hang them round the Magnaclean so they do not get lost.

I found the cap screw eventually got worn or dirty and would not tighten easily, I cleaned the thread thoroughly and applied a trace of plumbers silicone grease with a brush to the entire threaded part, and it now screws OK.

more on http://www.adeysolutions.co.uk/subprofessional2.asp?id=246

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDgegChsLvc

I am a householder not a pro

p.s. as your system is evidently very dirty, I would suggest adding Sentinel X400 to it (this is a sludge-loosening chemical, it is not aggressive or acidic) and running it for 4 weeks or so. All the black sludge that it loosens will be trapped by the Magnaclean - you will be surprised how much there is. The system ought to be drained and rinsed after that, but it will not cause damage if the chemical is left in - it just slowly loses its power. If your installer added a corrosion inhibitor he should have stuck or hung a label on or near the boiler saying what type, and what date. If not, and you suspect it does not contain inhibitor, ask whoever is doing the other work to add it for you. He will probably have a tool to inject it through the Magnaclean or into a radiator. He will probably want to drain out the old water first if he does not know what is in it, and this will also wash out some particles that are not magnetic black sludge and so not trapped in the Magnaclean.

 

[Meme21]

Thank you JohnD for that very comprehensive list of instructions. I will try it out next week.

twgas - I have had a WB technician out to look at the boiler and he was happy that it had been correctly installed. He was a bit perplexed by the flue as it has a few angles, but he said that a larger size had been put in so it was fine.

Sorry, yes I meant an automatic by-pass valve, apparently there is a manual by pass at the moment.

Whether there is inhibitor in the system or not I don't know. There is no label or anything to say if it was added.

The fitter put the boiler in very quickly. Most of the time he wasn't even there and left it to a young person (trainee?) to do a lot of the work. Like an idiot I paid his invoice immediately, even before he commissioned the boiler, and as soon as he had my cheque just didn't want to know.

What I want to know now is whether it would be best to power flush or chemically clean. I know I need a new pump and the automatic by-pass but wonder whether this will help stop the air getting into the system, and why is there so much air?

 

[twgas]

Can you post some pics of the pump,valves and pipework in airing cupboard - that is where I think the problem may lie.

 

[Axel]

So do you still have an open vent system? That would be prone to sucking in air, like mine does.

I still have a Kingfisher!

Before thinking of replacing the boiler I shall convert to a sealed system that has no vent pipe and is under enough pressure to prevent air being sucked in through any micro leaks.

I see the 40CDi advertised as an open vent boiler - presumably it can be also be converted??

 

[JohnD]

if you do have an open-vent system, you can put in Sentinel X400 yourself, which will loosen lots of old sludge so the Magnaclean can catch it. You tip it into the Feed and Expansion Tank in the loft and stir it in.

If the F&E is not already perfectly clean, bale it out, scoop out the mud and sponge it clean first. You have to tie up the float of the ball valve first so that it does not keep refilling while you are working, and untie it after pouring in the chemical. I had assumed that you had a sealed system and did not have the plumbing skills to inject the chemical into one.

Do you have an open system with an F&E ("Header Tank") in the loft? Do you know where there is a drain cock for your radiators, and do you know how to drain out some water? If not, it can be done using the Magnaclean valves into a bucket - can explain more if you want. Draining a bucket of water out after you have poured in the chemical draws it down into the system and gets it working quickly. Sentinel X400 only costs about £15 for a litre bottle and is available at any plumbers merchant and many DIY sheds (other chemicals are available but most do not work the same way). As you have 22 radiators you will need two litre bottles. Very often X400 and a Magnaclean will do the trick... and will save you hundreds of pounds on a powerflush. It will certainly do nothing but good, and will make any subsequent powerflush more effective because more old sludge will already be loosened or captured.

If the system is sucking in air, (or possibly pumping over into the F&E and getting aerated), I agree that the pipe layout probably needs correcting. A properly designed open-vent system should not do it. Air will cause the radiators to rust from the inside (causing brown sludge) so it is important to get it fixed. Sometimes turning down the pump speed will reduce air intake (not on a combi as it will have been adjusted). A sealed system does not suck in air unless there is a leak on the suction side.

 

[Meme21]

Firstly, I would like to thank everyone on this Forum for all the very valuable information and advice given to me since my central heating system became a problem. I have learned so much and it has really opened my eyes.

I have found a Gas Safe Registered engineer that has been recommended to me from a reliable source and he says that he will do a power flush, change my pump and fit an automatic bypass valve plus a couple of TVRs for £500 which seems extremely good value.

One doubt remains in my mind however. I now suspect, that despite having had my heating system drained down a couple of times over the past six years (by BG) and a supposed 'flush' during the fitting of my new boiler, no inhibitor has ever been added (no sticker re: this has ever been put on either old or new boiler). The result of this is that several of my radiators have external rust spots and one is quite corroded across the bottom.

Question I would like to ask is, what is the likelihood of leaks to systems following a power flush. If a radiator needs changing it needs changing, but what about pipework, which on my ground floor is buried in concrete, or will all the pipework be copper (house built 25 years ago).

Thanks again for all your help.

Val

 

[JohnD]

radiators sometimes rust on the outside due to condensaton (where they have been firmly turned off) or leaks running down. However, if yours have rusted through from the inside, this is seriously bad and they should be replaced before or at the same time as your other plumbing work. If they have rusted through they will leak sooner rather than later, and they may only be bunged up with dirt. Fit new valves at both ends at the same time.

Pipes are most likely copper throughout, ina house of your age. Sadly this can corrode if it has been put in concrete with no protection.

 

[Agile]

I am not convinced from what you have said that a power flush is going to be necessary.

You could always try the X400 for four weeks and see if that removes much dirt into the Magnaclean.

However, letting the RGI do it all will at least meand that you have a competent person managing the situation ( and making up for what your installer should have done ).

Tony

 

[Happyplumber]

Meme I think at last you are on the right tracks ,with a local recommendation

Make sure to ask plenty of questions and anything that you feel uncomfortable with let the RGI know, i am sure he will symapathize
knowing that you have been ripped off

This thread would have been alot shorter without the slanging match and the blatant advertising by dear old tony Agile

I think everyone on this forum now knows your prices and how you like the "DIAGNOSTIC" payment from certain people over the phone before you even go out to them .

 

[Meme21]

Make sure to ask plenty of questions and anything that you feel uncomfortable with let the RGI know, i am sure he will symapathize
knowing that you have been ripped off
.

The original RGI who installed the boiler got very stroppy with me because "I asked questions". He really didn't like it. Example of question:

Q. "Southern Gas have said they have done everything they can do and have fitted the largest pipework they can but you say you still can't commission the boiler because the pressure is too low, so what happens now?"

A. "Why do you ask questions?"



Oh well, system on the road to recovery now I hope.

Val