DIY Electrics. Do I Need Any Certification?

[endaxi]

Hi All,

In 2005 when my now wife sold her house I seem to remember us answering a series of questions one of which was something like, 'Has any alterations been made to the house wiring installation since such and such a date?' I can't remember the date exactly but it may have been around 2003 or 2004. I had done some alterations but that was a few years before the date in question so the answer was a simple 'No'.

As it happens, the buyer had an electrical survey done and she said she was advised by the electrician that the house needed re-wiring and would we pay half the cost. We agreed to her request in order to get the sale and reduced the sale price accordingly. I also left her diagrams of the wiring additions I had made so as to assist with the rewire.

Now to the point of my post. Something obviously changed around 2003/4 and as we moved into this house in 2005 we would be subject to that change. We are now thinking of selling our current house in the not too distant future and as I have made a few minor changes to the installation I would have to answer any similar question with a 'Yes'. Below are the changes I have made and I would like to know if I have to notify anyone or have any checks and certification carried out.

1. When we had some additional kitchen units fitted I moved an existing double socket which was near the floor higher up the wall so as to locate it above the new worktop and below the new wall unit. It has the same wire supplying it as it had originally but I had to shorten it by a metre or so.

2. I moved a light fitting about six inches so as to position it central over the dining table. I seem to remember there was only three wires (LN&E) to the original fitting so I just extended them via a terminal block and brought them back through the ceiling to the new fitting. I could reverse this if necessary and fit a pendant in the original position.

3. I removed a shaver socket that was right in front of a bathroom sink and terminated the wires in a terminal block so I could fit a mirror over where the socket was. I could also reverse this if necessary by removing the mirror and fitting a new shaver socket.

4. Finally, and I don't think this will count as an alteration, I removed several light pendants and fitted new light fittings in their place. I may reverse these of course and re-fit pendants upon selling the house.

Any advice about what action I need to take with reference to the four points above ahead of marketing the house would be appreciated.

Thanks.

 

[plugwash]

Disclaimer: the below applies to England and Wales, Scotland have a totally different system of building regulations, which I have not kept track of. It also reflects my understanding which may well have inaccuracies.

Starting in January 2005, electrical work was added to the building regulations as "part P". The technical requirements were very vauge but "Reasonable provision shall be made in the design and installation of electrical installations in order to protect persons operating, maintaining or altering the installations from fire or injury." the government advice was to follow BS7671,

Additionally some works were made notifiable to building control. Notifiable works are supposed to be notified to building control and you would have to provide enough documentation to convince them you met the technical requirements. There were also self-certification schemes that electricians could join reducing the per-job beuracracy and cost (but introducing beuracracy and cost that does not depend on the amount of work done, so not practical for a DIYer).

Under BS7671 work (regardless of whether it is notfiable or not) is supposed to be tested and documented. As I mentioned above though there is no specific requirement to follow BS7671 just guidance to do so (though it's still a good benchmark as to whether work was done with acceptable quality).

In theory you could apply to building control for "regularisation" of works that should have been notified but weren't, in practice that is usually regarded as more trouble than it's worth for someting like electrical work where the chance of enforcement is practically NIL. Sometimes soliciters will convince their buyers to take out insurance against enforcement.

In April 2013 the scope of the notification rules in England (but not Wales) was dramatically reduced.

Anyway onto comments on the specific things you describe.

Hi All,
1. When we had some additional kitchen units fitted I moved an existing double socket which was near the floor higher up the wall so as to locate it above the new worktop and below the new wall unit. It has the same wire supplying it as it had originally but I had to shorten it by a metre or so.

This would have been notifiable under the old notification rules, but not under the later rules in England.

2. I moved a light fitting about six inches so as to position it central over the dining table. I seem to remember there was only three wires (LN&E) to the original fitting so I just extended them via a terminal block and brought them back through the ceiling to the new fitting.

Assuming this wasn't in a Bathroom or kitchen, then it's not notifiable.

However loose terminal block in a Ceiling void is not considered an acceptable way to join cables. If terminal block is used then it needs to be in a suitable enclosure and it needs to be accessible for inspection. If it is not accessible for inspection a maintenance free junction box should be used.

3. I removed a shaver socket that was right in front of a bathroom sink and terminated the wires in a terminal block so I could fit a mirror over where the socket was. I could also reverse this if necessary by removing the mirror and fitting a new shaver socket.

Assuming this was within the bathroom zones (sometimes something can be in the Bathroom but outside the zones) then it should have been notified.

Cables should not be left live in a wall with nothing to indicate where they are. They should be preferablly be disconnected at source. Also as above bare terminal blocks are not an acceptable means of joining/terminating cables.

 

[JohnW2]

Now to the point of my post. Something obviously changed around 2003/4 and as we moved into this house in 2005 we would be subject to that change. We are now thinking of selling our current house in the not too distant future and as I have made a few minor changes to the installation I would have to answer any similar question with a 'Yes'.

That sort of 'depends'. The question you will have to answer is usually of this form (from a standard conveyancing "Form TA6") ...

Despite what it says, I don't personally think it was really intended to mean "any electrical installation work" but, rather was only really intended to refer to "notifiable" electrical work (a concept which only arose on 1st January 2005). Apart from anything else, the documents (b) and (c) it refers to will usually only exist in relation to such 'notifiable' work - and, as for (a), there is actually no such thing as a "BS7671 Electrical Safety Certificate"! The latter is probably an incorrect attempt to refer to an Electrical Installation Certificate or a Minor Works certificate.

Below are the changes I have made and I would like to know if I have to notify anyone or have any checks and certification carried out.

Of the four minor things you mention, (1), (2) and (4) probably don't count as 'notifiable' in England (but (1) might ]. As for (3), that might be notifiable if it were within 600mm of a bath or shower, but is nevertheless a very minor thing you did.

Other opinions may differ, and I'm not going top 'advise' you, but I can say that I'm sure that many people in your position (having done just those four very minor things) would undoubtedly simply answer 'No' to that question, and it's very hard to see how anyone could ever prove you wrong (unless, I suppose, your house was brand new when you moved into it. I personally belive that would be within the 'intended spirit' of the question asked on the conveyancing forms

I could perhaps add that, although 'wrong', and technically illegal, I very much doubt that a significant number of people undertaking any of the tasks you have mentioned would have notified' them at the time.

I'll be interested to see what others have to say

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I should perhaps have added, since I usually say this in such situations, that another approach is to be totally honest - to tell the potential buyer's solicitor/conveyancer exactly what you did, that you did not notify LABC about any of it (even if that was required), that you have no paperwork and have no intention of trying to anything retrospectively about any of that - and that if the buyer wants to 'walk away' from the purchase for that trivial reason, that's entirely up to them. Don't forget it is just a buyer you are dealing with, not the FBI

Kind Regards, John

 

[Jackrae]

I should perhaps have added, since I usually say this in such situations, that another approach is to be totally honest - to tell the potential buyer's solicitor/conveyancer exactly what you did, that you did not notify LABC about any of it (even if that was required), that you have no paperwork and have no intention of trying to anything retrospectively about any of that - and that if the buyer wants to 'walk away' from the purchase for that trivial reason, that's entirely up to them. Don't forget it is just a buyer you are dealing with, not the FBI

Kind Regards, John

And to recommend that the purchaser has a complete rewire done to ensure compliance since the asking/selling price reflects this recommendation.

 

[mrrusty]

The easiest answer is to answer "don't know". There can be no comeback on this answer. It is quite possible to have a bad memory and simply not be able to remember. There is no obligation on a householder to keep records. What they going to do?

 

[ericmark]

I knew my mothers house would be sold, or rented, so wanted the paperwork required.
So first job wet room, we got in a builder to do it, who it transpired did not inform LABC so thinking they had, when he ran off, I told LABC I was taking over the job, and had to jump through the hoops, I wrote out the installation certificate and got the completion certificate.
Next was kitchen, paid for by social services, again contractors, and a installation and compliance certificate were issued.
Next was door entry, paid for by social services, again contractors, in spite of requesting the paperwork not was forth coming, in spite of being a local authority job, shows how much they care for the rules.
Finally a re-wire of most of house except bits which were new, and an installation certificated and compliance certificate were issued.

Although I knew which paperwork refereed to each bit, reading it I realised it was impossible to work out which bit of paper covered what, specially the wet room, where there was no way to link the installation certificate to the completion certificate, so in real terms useless.

On selling the house the paperwork was mislaid, so I asked the LABC for copies, was told it would take 4 months (this was before colvid) and there was no fixed fee, I would need to pay the council worker how ever long it took. Solicitor said no problem take out insurance against enforcement. However the documents were found.

But is seemed the LABC simply did not want to provide the paperwork, and thought I was silly asking for replacements, so unless some one is killed, it is unlikely anyone cares.

On buying this house I was presented with the installation certificate and compliance certificate, made out as if for whole house, it turned out it only covered the flat under the house.

@JohnW2 picture

is I think a standard form, and there is no reason why you should not complete a minor works certificate yourself for bits not requiring notification, this means you can say yes to electrical work being done, and include a copy of the minor works certificate so you have told no lies. Saying no it could come back to bite, but if any certificate is provided for any bit of work, your not lying.

With mothers house I could have ticked Not known as if only became my house after her death. It is clear no one really cares, unless come one dies as a result of bad workmanship.

If you do not have the skill to fill in the minor works, then to be frank you should not have done the job, but you can get an electrical installation condition report (EICR) for the work done, it does not need to be for whole house, just some work which did not require notification and again you have ticked the boxes without lying.

The whole thing is a farce, the certificate for this house, was clearly jackanory, I could see the readings did not really match, some one it seems had just copied from another form. The readings were what one would expect for the whole house, not a small flat under the house.

When things go wrong as with Emma Shaws death then the HSE will go through the paperwork and find out who was responsible, there is no hiding from that, if you think you may have done some poor workmanship getting an EICR done may remove some of the blame, but no EICR can find all faults, so you could still be libel. That case the electrician, plaster, plumber, electricians mate, and electrical foreman all had a part to play in the death, but these cases are rare. How it was all laid at the feet of the electrical foreman I don't know, seems wrong, so if things go wrong near impossible to say what a court would say.

However the IET say an EICR should be done with every change of occupancy, clearly no good you doing the EICR that needs to be done by the buyers, if they don't do it, then they are also braking the rules (not law). Only you know how good your workmanship is, this is why only the person reasonable for the work can sign the minor works or installation certificate. You have already broken the rules, it's like asking have you every exceeded the speed limit, if so please include details or fines if caught or mitigating circumstances if not caught, when selling your car, what would you put? (don't answer that I don't want to know) but only you can decide what to write on the form.

 

[JohnW2]

The easiest answer is to answer "don't know".

Yes, I should have mentioned that possibility, because it's something I see being done very frequently, in relation to the sale of houses which have often been re-possessed and/or whose owners have died or otherwise 'disappeared' - such that "don't know" is the only, and the truthful, answer. One does, however, have to simply write that on the form (and ignore the boxes), since there is not a "don't know" box on the standard form.

There can be no comeback on this answer. It is quite possible to have a bad memory and simply not be able to remember. There is no obligation on a householder to keep records. What they going to do?

In practice, I'm sure you're right. However, in terms of 'possible comeback', I don't think that's any less likely with a "don't know" answer than with the "no" answer which, as I said, is what I imagine many people in the OP's position would give - IF the OP does know that the work was done' then "don't know' is not much less of a lie than "No". However, as I implied, no-one is going to be able to prove that they are lies - unless, I suppose, it was a post-2005 new-build which had been occupied only by the seller since it was built.

Kind Regards, John

 

[endaxi]

Thank you all for your ideas, advice and suggestions. What a minefield. I should have said that I live in England. I think the best I can do for a start is to move the ceiling light to its original position thereby removing the terminal block and extra wire and to fit a shaver socket back to where the original one was. I've always been a DIYer, mostly from necessity, but I think I'll leave some things to the professionals now.

Thanks again.

 

[JohnW2]

Thank you all for your ideas, advice and suggestions. What a minefield. I should have said that I live in England. I think the best I can do for a start is to move the ceiling light to its original position thereby removing the terminal block and extra wire and to fit a shaver socket back to where the original one was. I've always been a DIYer, mostly from necessity, but I think I'll leave some things to the professionals now. Thanks again.

You're welcome.

Your plan is sensible but, in case you are concerned about being 'totally legal', I would remind you of one thing I said - that to do thing to the shave socket would be 'notifiable work' (even in England) if the work were within 600mm of a bath or shower. If it were notifiable (and you wanted to comply with that law), it would not be cost-effective to DIY it.

Kind Regards, John

 

[endaxi]

You're welcome.

Your plan is sensible but, in case you are concerned about being 'totally legal', I would remind you of one thing I said - that to do thing to the shave socket would be 'notifiable work' (even in England) if the work were within 600mm of a bath or shower. If it were notifiable (and you wanted to comply with that law), it would not be cost-effective to DIY it.

Kind Regards, John

Thank you for all your input and advice, John.