And when you've done few hundred units and they've lasted five years apiece you can proudly proclaim your method as successful!
Double glazing misting problem - but not all the time.....
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freddymercurystwin
crank39
I dont disagree with you. Its not proven -- yet.
But lets re-cap. I didn't originally post on here to suggest a business, that came from a discovery. As yet clearly it needs further investigation.
The main thrust of my post was in reply to the original questioner. Specifically, that units can be "repaired" and do not neccessarily require replacement. The business thought was really an add-on.
But, your absolutely right, How to dry them efficiently, in good time, and cheaply. I can imagine some kind of portable oven. (a thought, i am investigating.) Or (jokingly -- half ) on a sunny day, I could just leave them on the lawn. But seriously, of course it needs refinement.
To take your list of q's.
How would you dry the units? -- Under investigation.
How could you guarantee its total dryness? I dont think that is neccessary. That's what the dessicant is for.
Can you actually dry desicant crystal to their original state? Does it have to be?. Or I wouldn't, I would replace it as in my prior post.
What equipment would you need to do the above? The minimum, no more than an an experienced fitter, plus a means of drying.
How would you remove a unit from a timber window where its been bedded on putty......without breaking it? I have only addressed PVC-U. There are millions of installations, hence I would not neccessarily work on wood frames. That is not to say it cant be done though. I have read elsewhere, posts by others that describe removal and replacement in wood frames. But I am not saying its feasable as I have not attempted it. I can well imagine the problems in hardened putty.
As regards warranty. I dont see the need to duplicate the 5 years on a new unit. Obviously the custiomer would be charged only for time and materials, which would not include the cost of a new unit. Hence they might be willing to forgoe a full 5 years. Again, its something to investigate.
Nothing in life is entirely straight forward, there are always barriers and challenges. That does not mean one should not rise to the challenge. I personally thrive on them. I positively enjoy combating and overcoming problems.
To come back to the point though. It is now 2 days short of 4 weeks, where a previously misted window is now clear. So it has (so-far) worked, and as I say the debate has to be set in that context.
I have a slightly water damaged unit that is now mist free, that I can live with. The more water damaged unit that is now also mist free, I will replace in due course, but for now is part of my experiment. I have a unit that is NOT water damaged, that is also mist free, but was showing signs of misting, and no doubt would have deteriorated further, had I not removed and "renewed" the installation.
So I wait, and meanwhile look into it further. I am not time pressured here. It takes time to set up a business and i have plenty of time. There will be a need for window replacement/repair for a very long time to come, so if it takes me a year to ensure the method is indeed effective, so be it.
crank39
I dont disagree with you. Its not proven -- yet.
But lets re-cap. I didn't originally post on here to suggest a business, that came from a discovery. As yet clearly it needs further investigation.
The main thrust of my post was in reply to the original questioner. Specifically, that units can be "repaired" and do not neccessarily require replacement. The business thought was really an add-on.
But, your absolutely right, How to dry them efficiently, in good time, and cheaply. I can imagine some kind of portable oven. (a thought, i am investigating.) Or (jokingly -- half ) on a sunny day, I could just leave them on the lawn. But seriously, of course it needs refinement.
To take your list of q's.
How would you dry the units? -- Under investigation.
How could you guarantee its total dryness? I dont think that is neccessary. That's what the dessicant is for.
Can you actually dry desicant crystal to their original state? Does it have to be?. Or I wouldn't, I would replace it as in my prior post.
What equipment would you need to do the above? The minimum, no more than an an experienced fitter, plus a means of drying.
How would you remove a unit from a timber window where its been bedded on putty......without breaking it? I have only addressed PVC-U. There are millions of installations, hence I would not neccessarily work on wood frames. That is not to say it cant be done though. I have read elsewhere, posts by others that describe removal and replacement in wood frames. But I am not saying its feasable as I have not attempted it. I can well imagine the problems in hardened putty.
As regards warranty. I dont see the need to duplicate the 5 years on a new unit. Obviously the custiomer would be charged only for time and materials, which would not include the cost of a new unit. Hence they might be willing to forgoe a full 5 years. Again, its something to investigate.
Nothing in life is entirely straight forward, there are always barriers and challenges. That does not mean one should not rise to the challenge. I personally thrive on them. I positively enjoy combating and overcoming problems.
To come back to the point though. It is now 2 days short of 4 weeks, where a previously misted window is now clear. So it has (so-far) worked, and as I say the debate has to be set in that context.
I have a slightly water damaged unit that is now mist free, that I can live with. The more water damaged unit that is now also mist free, I will replace in due course, but for now is part of my experiment. I have a unit that is NOT water damaged, that is also mist free, but was showing signs of misting, and no doubt would have deteriorated further, had I not removed and "renewed" the installation.
So I wait, and meanwhile look into it further. I am not time pressured here. It takes time to set up a business and i have plenty of time. There will be a need for window replacement/repair for a very long time to come, so if it takes me a year to ensure the method is indeed effective, so be it.
So let's say you started a business, what would you think the cost would be to carry out this repair for 1 unit, including all costs? Also you say you could leave the unit on the lawn for a time to dry it out, desiccant will soak up the moisture from the grass and the air so I cannot see how the will dry it out fully
Dear God I would normally repsect all that you say, but in this I am a sinner and cannot agree, and must qualify what you say. .
Forgive me for quoting myself.
The cost to myself, --- would be broadly the same since it involves the same labour, minus measuring, ordering collecting a replacement unit, but plus the cost of drying. This investment (drying method) will be recouped over time in the way all tools and equipment are in any business.
It is not in my commercial interests to give you more detail than that, as I have now sourced an idea/means of drying, that does indeed make this commercially viable at least, as long as the practicalities are all ironed out so to speak. "The appliance of science", as a well known washing machine manufacturer once advertised.
As for soaking up the moisture in the grass as you suggest, clearly it did not. The unit is still mist free. It was a hot sunny day, and the lawn was extremely dry, there being no rain for a while as we all know. (SE England).
It is --- so far --- a fact, that leaving the unit on the lawn in the hot sun has dried out the unit. In my last post, I repeated it as a potential method for drying the units, and added in brackets that I was joking. The principle worked, but I acknowledged that it’s not practical of course to rely on such a method. That's why I am investigating an efficient practical and cheap drying method.
You say the desiccant in the unit will soak up moisture from the air. Why would the temporarily removed unit soak up any more moisture from the air, than when it was in the frame? The frame rubbers don't keep out atmospheric moisture. So just because the unit is lying on the lawn or propped against a wall, or anywhere else for that matter, why should the desiccant soak up anymore moisture?
I appreciate your questioning, it makes me think about aspects that I might have missed. And I also understand your point from a business angle.
However, can we discuss more the fact, that -- so far ---, (and the evidence grows everyday) the unit(s) have not re-misted?
.Forgive me for quoting myself.
As such, and as I explained in my last post, I cant give finalities, as I am still investigating. But clearly if my solution works and does not have to cover the cost of ordering and paying for a replacement unit, then the cost to the customer is expected to be reduced (assuming too I would have put a mark up on the cost of replacement unit if I installed one ). That's the hook to the customer.
The cost to myself, --- would be broadly the same since it involves the same labour, minus measuring, ordering collecting a replacement unit, but plus the cost of drying. This investment (drying method) will be recouped over time in the way all tools and equipment are in any business.
It is not in my commercial interests to give you more detail than that, as I have now sourced an idea/means of drying, that does indeed make this commercially viable at least, as long as the practicalities are all ironed out so to speak. "The appliance of science", as a well known washing machine manufacturer once advertised.
As for soaking up the moisture in the grass as you suggest, clearly it did not. The unit is still mist free. It was a hot sunny day, and the lawn was extremely dry, there being no rain for a while as we all know. (SE England).
It is --- so far --- a fact, that leaving the unit on the lawn in the hot sun has dried out the unit. In my last post, I repeated it as a potential method for drying the units, and added in brackets that I was joking. The principle worked, but I acknowledged that it’s not practical of course to rely on such a method. That's why I am investigating an efficient practical and cheap drying method.
You say the desiccant in the unit will soak up moisture from the air. Why would the temporarily removed unit soak up any more moisture from the air, than when it was in the frame? The frame rubbers don't keep out atmospheric moisture. So just because the unit is lying on the lawn or propped against a wall, or anywhere else for that matter, why should the desiccant soak up anymore moisture?
I appreciate your questioning, it makes me think about aspects that I might have missed. And I also understand your point from a business angle.
However, can we discuss more the fact, that -- so far ---, (and the evidence grows everyday) the unit(s) have not re-misted?
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I'm sure a temporary repair could be acheived using the method you have suggested but I guess it's life will be variable.
But I just can't see it being worthwhile.
My experience is limited. I've only ever personally replaced one pane, and that was due to breakage rather than misting. I was surprised at the time on how cheap the unit was.
I have replaced the windows in my current house due to misting, but to be honest they were over 20 years old and the frames looked dated so I was happy to change the frames and glass together.
So I think your market will be fairly small, you need to find people with windows which have misted. These people then need to be happy with the frames. These people need to have decided to fix the misting before any water marks have gone on the inside of the glass.
You'd probably have to be repairing a lot of units at once house to make the call out worthwhile.
The dbg unit itself is the cheap part of the job of replacing a unit, the expensive part is labour. You'd be saving the cheap part and adding to the expensive part so would probably price yourself out of the market.
Maybe as an add-on service to an existing dbg company you may be able to get some business? But as a business on it's own I think you'd struggle to generate a worthwhile profit
But I just can't see it being worthwhile.
My experience is limited. I've only ever personally replaced one pane, and that was due to breakage rather than misting. I was surprised at the time on how cheap the unit was.
I have replaced the windows in my current house due to misting, but to be honest they were over 20 years old and the frames looked dated so I was happy to change the frames and glass together.
So I think your market will be fairly small, you need to find people with windows which have misted. These people then need to be happy with the frames. These people need to have decided to fix the misting before any water marks have gone on the inside of the glass.
You'd probably have to be repairing a lot of units at once house to make the call out worthwhile.
The dbg unit itself is the cheap part of the job of replacing a unit, the expensive part is labour. You'd be saving the cheap part and adding to the expensive part so would probably price yourself out of the market.
Maybe as an add-on service to an existing dbg company you may be able to get some business? But as a business on it's own I think you'd struggle to generate a worthwhile profit
The DG Unit I replaced was about 4 years ago but only cost twenty odd quid. I just went to the local glass place - didn't shop around etc. Then had to go back with the thickness as I'd only measured width and height!
Was something like 1200mm x 700mm
Was something like 1200mm x 700mm
So, its agreed in principle then that you can repair a sealed unit, but you don't think it worth it. Good we are clear on that. I am of a different opinion.
Sotal says he can get a sealed unit for 20 quid. 1200mm x 700mm really? Where? Please give contact details I'll ring them and get a few quotes.
75 quid from God supply and fit. 1M sq. How much with lead?.
35 quid +vat a meter at cost?
Again please tell me the supplier and I will ring for confirmation of quote. What part of London or Surrey is that?
------------ OK, END of this section, its been done to death I think. ------------
So PLEASE, stop concentrating on the business aspect. Its not germain to the thread. Its an after thought that I am exploring, and add on. My fault of course, I shouldn't have expressed that particular thought process in text. So moving right along as they say in the US of A.
I didn't start this thread, I responded to it. The subject is "Double glazing misting problem", and why it happens.
Lets discuss that, in the context that I have fixed at least 2 units and ignore my foolish ambitions to be a millionaire.
No I don't know how long they will last, but so far, nobody has given a scientific or reasoned argument as to why they wont last. Nobody knows do they. Now doesn't that interest people more, than if a stranger can or cant make a business out of it? .
This is a DIY forum. So why dont we start back there?
Does it not interest people, to be able to fix things for themselves and be able to save money at the same time? Apparently not.
No matter. Irrespective of comments here, I am better off to the tune of 200 quid at least, for less then 2 hours "work". Easy work that is, as a result of a chance discovery, when I just happened to leave a removed sealed unit sitting in the hot sun.
Thats not too bad in my book. I have over 20 sealed units in my house, if I can salvage only half of them that's a grand saved for very little effort. The labour(effort) involved in removing and replacing the same unit is little different to the effort in putting in a new one (less in fact). And the frames are completely servicable. They will last for years to come.
You don't throw your car away when it needs a service, lets look at it from that perspective. Why throw out what can with little effort have an extended life. I contend that they will last longer than a year by the way. I see no reason why I have not extended the life of the unit to another 5 years at least. Maybe the original 20 years for all I know.
4 of my unit show signs of misting. ALL of them had installation issues that I have now rectified. NONe of the other units show signs of misting.
I wonder how long the longest lasting sealed unit has lasted? anybody know? How did it last so long?
Sotal says he can get a sealed unit for 20 quid. 1200mm x 700mm really? Where? Please give contact details I'll ring them and get a few quotes.
75 quid from God supply and fit. 1M sq. How much with lead?.
35 quid +vat a meter at cost?
Again please tell me the supplier and I will ring for confirmation of quote. What part of London or Surrey is that?
------------ OK, END of this section, its been done to death I think. ------------
So PLEASE, stop concentrating on the business aspect. Its not germain to the thread. Its an after thought that I am exploring, and add on. My fault of course, I shouldn't have expressed that particular thought process in text. So moving right along as they say in the US of A.
I didn't start this thread, I responded to it. The subject is "Double glazing misting problem", and why it happens.
Lets discuss that, in the context that I have fixed at least 2 units and ignore my foolish ambitions to be a millionaire.
No I don't know how long they will last, but so far, nobody has given a scientific or reasoned argument as to why they wont last. Nobody knows do they. Now doesn't that interest people more, than if a stranger can or cant make a business out of it? .
This is a DIY forum. So why dont we start back there?
Does it not interest people, to be able to fix things for themselves and be able to save money at the same time? Apparently not.
No matter. Irrespective of comments here, I am better off to the tune of 200 quid at least, for less then 2 hours "work". Easy work that is, as a result of a chance discovery, when I just happened to leave a removed sealed unit sitting in the hot sun.
Thats not too bad in my book. I have over 20 sealed units in my house, if I can salvage only half of them that's a grand saved for very little effort. The labour(effort) involved in removing and replacing the same unit is little different to the effort in putting in a new one (less in fact). And the frames are completely servicable. They will last for years to come.
You don't throw your car away when it needs a service, lets look at it from that perspective. Why throw out what can with little effort have an extended life. I contend that they will last longer than a year by the way. I see no reason why I have not extended the life of the unit to another 5 years at least. Maybe the original 20 years for all I know.
4 of my unit show signs of misting. ALL of them had installation issues that I have now rectified. NONe of the other units show signs of misting.
I wonder how long the longest lasting sealed unit has lasted? anybody know? How did it last so long?
I have a couple of non-sealed units I made myself in 1986, they have not misted. The trick is to give pinhole ventilation to the outside (not indoors) where the air is usually cooler and holds less moisture, with a wisp of fibreglass stuffed in it to filter out dust and insects. As the temperature varies the unit breathes with expansion and contraction of the air in the space.
Sadly modern sealed units are usually made of safety glass so even with a diamond tip you can't make a ventilation hole.
Sadly modern sealed units are usually made of safety glass so even with a diamond tip you can't make a ventilation hole.
Correct you don't but what you do do is service it replacing certain parts with new replacements, you don't start repairing old worn out parts, you don't sieve the old engine oil nor un-pick the crimped edge of the oil filter to clean out the inards, the days of relining your old brakes shoes have long gone because its cheaper to buy new, same as the days of splitting blown dgu's and re-sealing them with new spacer bars and dessicant have long gone, its just not viable.
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