Double glazing misting problem - but not all the time.....

[sotal]

Sotal says he can get a sealed unit for 20 quid. 1200mm x 700mm really? Where? Please give contact details I'll ring them and get a few quotes.

My DG Unit was from a local place at the time: http://www.hanleyglass.co.uk/

Give them a try although they're a bit far from you!

As I stated though it was 4 years ago and the cost was £20 odd quid, I can't remember the exact amount but it was twenty something.

 

[slpj]

Sotan, Yup, staffs is a bit too far from me, but thanks, I will ring them for a quote for comparison purposes.

Crank39

you don't start repairing old worn out parts you don't sieve the old engine oil nor un-pick the crimped edge of the oil filter to clean out the inards, the days of relining your old brakes shoes have long gone

I completely agree with you Crank39. However with respect, the double glazed sealed unit is not in the category of an old worn out part. It is not worn out, only in need of attention. Brake linings, oil, and filters are ALL consumables. dg units are not classed as consumables by the companies that advertise and install them.
Indeed, even in 1994/5 Anglian were selling and installing double glazing windows with a 15 year gaurantee on the sealed units. DG is sold as an implied maintenance free sealed for life product. (25 years) I'm surprised they get away with it. On the other hand, if installed properly and treated properly, they are probably justisfied. But as all dg window replacers will know better than I, there are plenty of installations that never reach that kind of life expectancy. Nonetheless, that does not mean that the dg unit is a consumable.

The major component in a car, is arguably the engine. If it needs an adjustment you dont throw it out. The major component in a window, is the window unit, so likewise if it is servicable. IMO, as I see increasingly this is a matter of opinion.

God. Hmmm. I'm interested. Please quote your price for a 94mm x 55mm, 4mmclear/16mm/4mm leaded(Outer and Inner).

How do I get in touch with you? You say call. What number/co name? If I have understood your pricing correctly, I will call you for supply on those units that I definitely cant "fix".

 

[slpj]

I have an interesting (to me at least) observation to make that may or may not be relevant to this thread.

How long will a sheet of glass last? There are examples of 2000 year old Roman glass. There are glass windows in 12th century churches in this country.

There are oak frames with single sheets of glass in them, over a hundred years old.

And yet. A DG sealed unit is made, sold, and installed, and only guaranteed for between 5 to 15 years, before it is expected to be thrown away, because the maker can't or won't gaurantee the mechanics of how it is constructed.

So we have the technology to produce clear, heat reflecting, self cleaning, almost unbreakable security glass, that can last for a million years. (Glass doesn't de-compose). But because we take two of these sheets of glass, and crudely stick them together, we reduce that useful life expectancy to less than 0.0015% of it's potential.

Now it seems to me that there is something very wrong there; -- Perhaps reflected in the comments in this thread, where the majority are more than willing to accept that the answer to a misted unit is to throw it away. 2 perfectly good pieces of sophisticated technology are scrapped because of the poor method employed in bringing them together in the production of sealed dg units. -- It's like tying the two ends of a hardened steel chain together with cotton.

Is there really no way to ensure the integrity of the air-gap for at least longer than 30 or 40 years?

I wonder. Is this the same as the everlasting razor blade or light bulb that rumour has it, manufactures keep from the market to ensure future sales?

Or is it that nobody has bothered to improve on the method of constructing the sealed unit, whilst all other aspects of window installation seem to have advanced significantly.

 

[crank39]

I take it you didn't know that glass is a super cooled liquid and suffers from 'glass flow' whereby over a period of time it starts to sag and gets thicker at the bottom, maybe this is why some dgu's don't last

 

[God]

I think you may also find that if the glass manufacturers could make the glass you suggest they and many of thousands of other glass companies would probaly not exist, leaving thousands unemployed. Where would the benefit be of supplying glass that would last a lifetime, no benefit to anyone in the glazing industry

 

[crank39]

crudely stick them together

You seem to have answered your own question.

Also please note that no one has said that the dgu has failed because of a fault with the glass, its the actual seal thats failed but you already know this. I agree with you the glass itself will last thousands of years but you cannot compare a single pane of glass with that of a dgu, they are two totally different things.

 

[JohnD]

I take it you didn't know that glass is a super cooled liquid and suffers from 'glass flow' whereby over a period of time it starts to sag and gets thicker at the bottom

myth

sorry.

 

[crank39]

I take it you didn't know that glass is a super cooled liquid and suffers from 'glass flow' whereby over a period of time it starts to sag and gets thicker at the bottom

myth

sorry.

Well some do say its a myth but they don't explain why glass is always thicker at the bottom

 

[JohnD]

because in the old days when glass was cast, spun or drawn, and of uneven thickness, glaziers were taught to put it in windows, thickest side down.

 

[slpj]

[I agree with you the glass itself will last thousands of years but you cannot compare a single pane of glass with that of a dgu, they are two totally different things.

Forgive me for saying so, but you have "mist" my point.

Seriously though, I do think it legitimate to compare the dgu and a single sheet of glass. They are one and the same thing essentially. The single sheet life expectancy is degraded by the action of placing it together with another sheet in a far from efficient manner.

Glass is made, intentionally or not, that will last a VERY long time. Apart from the water damaged sheet in dg units, the other sheet is perfectly servicable, and yet it is thrown away. Now I am not particularly an environmentalist per se, however it does offend some part of my psyche, that this is the case.

If the sealant is the weak link in this, I wonder why this has not been improved? Is it really impossible to properly hermetically seal two sheets of glass together?

My brother has a glass fish tank that is 30 years old. About 100 litres I think (its a fairly big tank). It doesn't leak. I have no idea how it is bonded/sealed, but if the fish don't flow out, why does a dgu leak?

I also begin to wonder now about the advantages of dg anyway. Modern frames made from UPVC, are pretty long lasting. A single sheet of glass installed in the same fashion as a dgu would be draught free but without the thermal properties of a dgu. But how much is lost anyway? I and most people I know lose more heat from the open window they employ to get fresh air into the room. You don't need dg in the summer, so really is it worth it?

I also wonder about JohnD's self made dg units. He doesn't have a misting problem because he has introduced a vent.

Are they so much less efficient, because there is a small air circulation? Perhaps not.

I wonder if the cost over time, of replacing dg units might not make a dg installation that rewarding after all.

Perhaps a modern single sheet installation, with Pilkington heat reflective glass, might be cost effective?

And God, are you really saying that the best reason to keep the status quo in the dg industry, is to prevent unemployment and the partial demise of the glazing industry? If so and you are correct, then it is a conspiricy to make sure that DG installations fail regularly enough to ensure that the customer keeps coming back for more.

Even more motivation to find a way out of the snare methinks.

P.s God, did you get my quote?

 

[crank39]

I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make then as regards the life of single sheet glass and a dgu

If i were to bury a dgu and a single pane of glass for a 1000 years i would fully expect the seal to have broken down on the dgu but the single pane to be still...........well........er..........single pane glass, albeit probably broken thats why you can't compare the two.

Yes single pane glass will last thousands of years but the minute you seal two panes together you have a dgu NOT a single pane and this is the point of the thread..........why won't the seal last?

Yes you can re-use the glass from a blown dgu but we aren't disputing that, the fact that a whole dgu is readily discarded nowadays is because glass is so cheap compared to 30 years ago when it would of been cost effective to do what you suggest or even split the unit and reseal it with a new spacer bar and dessicant. On top of that the old units get recycled anyway, glass shops have cullet skips for clean glass/offcuts and skips for dirty glass ie units, laminated and such like, it all gets recycled.

There is a company in the midlands, burton on trent i think that advertised that they had a cure for blown units. From speaking with colleagues and a person who actually worked for the said company the idea was to drill a small hole in the top corner of the unit and one in the bottom, they would then spray some magic liquid through the top hole, removing all th water marks as it ran to the bottom and then drained out through the bottom hole, the holes were then simply taped over with a clear circular disc the size of a 10p.

Heres a link for you try, it tries to back up your argument that dgu's can be repaired but uses a different method to yours

http://www.crystalclearwindowworks.co.uk/process/thewhy.htm

But after reading that little lot be sure to try this next link...

http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/crystal-clear-window-works-c192520.html

Enjoy!

 

[crank39]

The company i work for carry out warranty work under the IBG, we contract to various insurance companies and my work involves attending policy holders homes, assessing faults with the installation, writing reports to the insurance companies including a quote for all parts and labour to put the job right, below are some prices my office charge the insurance companies, note these are NOT trade prices but have our mark up on them and are dearer than joe public would pay.

640 x 2150, 4/16/4, clear tough, bronze spacer bar
600 x 2150, 4/16/4, clear tough, bronze spacer bar
640 x 2150, 4/16/4, clear tough, bronze spacer bar
600 x 2150, 4/16/4, clear tough, bronze spacer bar

£209.00

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450 x 985, 4/20/4, clear float, k-glass,silver spacer bar

£20.00

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543 x 905mm 4/20/4, clear tough k-glass, bronze spacer

£22.60

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465 x 860, 28mm, Oak k-glass, bronze spacer bar, square leaded

£20.00

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2215mm x 1425mm, 4/20/4 clear toughened K, silver spacer bar

£157.00

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835mm x 772mm, 4/20/4 oak toughened K, silver spacer bar

£32.82

These are pasted direct from my job files, not bad prices i think you'll agree, maybe God can give a comparative quote?

 

[God]

Sorry guys been a bit busy, ok I will try and compare prices tomorrow, bear in mind we are a small glass co, and we buy our toughened in were as cranks company probaly go to a toughened manufacturer, but I will give it a go. And on the other matter, you could say that about anything, I.e if you could manufacture a car, boiler, fridge, tv that never broke what would happen to our economy?

 

[crank39]

Sorry guys been a bit busy, ok I will try and compare prices tomorrow, bear in mind we are a small glass co, and we buy our toughened in were as cranks company probaly go to a toughened manufacturer, but I will give it a go. And on the other matter, you could say that about anything, I.e if you could manufacture a car, boiler, fridge, tv that never broke what would happen to our economy?

Cheers God,will look forward to your quote.

All our guys work from home and have accounts set up in their local area, be it for glass, frames, locks, consumables etc etc. My local glass supplier is a small 3 man band, he buys his toughened in from solaglas. I get a 3 day turnaround for toughened IF i needed it but the standard 5 day works well as most insurance claims take a few weeks to be approved anyway.

If slpj wants to fiddle around with his own units then its up to him but IMO its just not worth the wasted time and effort. For a unit that costs £20/30 to replace what would you have to charge to convince the customer that a repair is better value, i'd of said at least half price and a guarantee on top of at least a year. So how many £10/15 repair jobs would you need a day to earn a living from, bearing in mind you need to remove the unit, dry it, replace the dessicant, find the leak, seal the leak and re-fit the unit, not knowing the drying method slpj has in mind i reckon you've got 2 hours work per unit plus the drying time, it just isn't worthwhile.

 

[slpj]

I dont know how long this discussion is allowed as it has rather strayed from the title.

However. The point I was trying to make, badly perhaps, is that the construction of a dg unit, degrades the very material used. Placing single and double sheets in the ground is not the point.

Placing a single sheet in a window frame allows the glass sheet the potential to reach its life expectancy. Putting two of the same sheets into a dg unit, degrades that capacity.

You wouldn't put used engine oil into a new engine as it would cause the engine to wear out prematurely. So why use anything that causes the life of a glass sheet to be shortened so drastically? Maybe it is economic reason. If so, I would imagine that, if widely known, that would cause questions in Parliament. If for other reasons, then I wonder why the materials used, the sealant, is not the subject of research such that it lasts at least the life of the frames.

Again returning to the motoring comparison. There was a time that it was acceptable to use tons of steel, that would return to a pile of oxide, in less than 10 years. Famously, Lancia among other car makers, had to suffer the consequences of law suits for not doing enough to prevent this. Now cars are given a lifetime anti-rust treatment and warranty to match.

Why does/should this not apply to the Double Glazing industry?

Why is a replacement dg unit only guaranteed for 5 years, when the dg units installed in new installation often carry at least double this? Again, Anglian offer 15 years.

Is the answer that consumers wouldn't go near dg, if they knew that their hard earned thousands of pounds, would be wasted far sooner than they expect, by the premature failure of the window? How many dg firms tell their new customers, "see you in 5 to 10 years so that we can sell you some more glass. " ?

Crank39. Just a point. No I dont intend to find and seal the leak (unless its a large and very obvious one) or to replace the sealant and or desiccant, if the drying method can be established. Just returning the desiccant to its "dry" state would restore its absorbant properties. That's what it is there for, because as we all accept the sealant is not 100% effective. That said, I am a pragmatist. The prices for glass being bandied about here, are food for thought.

God I am not in need of toughened glass. So could also include the quote for regular with lead?