Double sockets

[holmslaw]

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[JohnW2]

Most of the brass fitting and round-pin plugs dated back 70 years. By 50 years ago new installations looked pretty modern.

I'm sure that's true, but most installations around 50 years ago were not new ones, but were pre-war (i.e. 70+ years old) and many remained in that state for decades thereafter.

I have mixed feelings about the loss of concentric earth protection (from earthed steel conduit) without RCDs, which happened with the advent of T+E cabling some 60 years ago.

I have some sympathy with that. However, the roofspace and unfloor spaces of my house are littered with remnants of steel conduit from that era, and the nature of the couplings, elbows and tees is such that I would have had very little confidence that decent earth continuity was maintained throughout the system. That's not a criticism of steel conduit, per se, but of the sort of system which was in this house (and which I think was very common).

Kind Regards, John.

 

[stillp]

That europa website is the european unions official website, it will also probably tell me that MEP's are honest

I don't imagine they could even spell 'honest'. That's a concept unfamilar to most politicians.

I think you will have gathered that I have zero interest in anything that comes out of that clearly proven den of corruption called the european parliament

Yes, I kind of got that impression! Don't let that put you off European Standards though, they are written by experts and published by CEN, CENELEC, and ETSI, and don't come from the parliament, who wouldn't understand them even if they could read.

the truth should not be allowed to interfere with a bit of healthy euro bashing

PS. Wish I was one of those thieving MEP bast***s.

Glad you're not. There are quite enough of them already thank you.

 

[JohnW2]

It appears that everyone has to test their double sockets to 20A total load, since that is what BS1363 requires. However, that obviously does not prevent some of them (e.g. MK) testing their (perhaps superior) products to 26A.

All British Standards are the minimum acceptable standard, they do not preclude someone manufacturing a higher standard product.

Indeed. I think that's what I said. Such issues of 'safety' (in the broadest sense) are obvioulsy only one aspect of Standards - but when they exist, they are indeed minimum standards. The more basic aspect of Standards (probably the original reason for their introduction) was to ensure, say, that one man's 13A plug fits into another man's 13A socket - and there is clearly no scope for deviation from those parts of a Standard.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

...snip.......As to BAS's request for a photo of a standard UK socket outlet showing the rating marked on the socket which is something other than 13A, if someone were to make such a socket then it wouldn't be a 13A socket, wouldn't comply with BS 1363-2, and therefore wouldn't be a standard UK socket-outlet, which I guess was the point BAS was making......snip....

I'm not sure bas said/asked that.

However, in the question I asked, I referred to a 'standard UK socket', not a '13A socket'. I did that deliberately.
You may also have noted that i mentioned that this subject crops up from time to time and its due to the fact that some of us have been down this road with various view points (none which i intend to re-iterate, they'll still be on this forum somewhere - someone more familiar with the search facility here may throw up a little link) that i just ask that question. If such a photo turned up, i might be inclined to look closer at BS1363 to gain a truely anally-retentive level of knowledge on the subject. Until then, i'm happy to accept the (perhaps simplistic) rule of thumb that the total load connected to a 13A socket should be limited to 13A. Its not too leftfield an idea and I like it

IMHO, 'how it is tested' and 'what it is rated at' are two different things.
If you are involved in R&D, product design or something similar, then knowledge of how its tested would be the focus.
If you are simply installing something which has already been tested then 'what is it rated at' would be the focus.

 

[flameport]

Easy answer to this problem - fit socket outlets onto 20A radials, and don't install ring circuits.
Or just accept that almost no one puts two 3kW electric fires into a double socket, and those that do can expect to have problems.

Not even a problem with dishwasher and washing machine in a double outlet, since the heating load is only on for a short time.
As for tumble dryers - should be banned along with a load of other stuff.

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

Ah, Flameport, I see what you've done there.

You've employed common sense!! It'll never catch on (not whilst we're european)

 

[Paul_C]

All these sockets were wired with the old 7/029 rubber cable which initially was 2-core and a separate bare earth of 3/029 was run alongside. With the coming of PVC insulation the CPC ran inside the outer sheath.

Rubber-sheathed cables with integral earth were available as well though.

I'm pretty sure most of these cables were aluminium or cupro-aluminium, as they tended to be silver in colour. Anyone else care to reminisce?

Aluminum was used for a time in later years, but most pre-metric copper cable had tinned strands, giving it the silver appearance.

I'm certainly glad that we've seen the demise of the early 13A plugs, which had 'holes' for the cable in the cover, rather than U-shaped 'cutouts' we now see - I wish I had a pound for every time I connected such a plug, only to have to do it again when I discovered that I'd forgotten to first thread the cable through the hole!

Easily done! But "thread on" covers have continued to be employed on some designs, so it's not exclusively an age-related issue. Look at any of the current Duraplug range, for example.

I am not so sure that things were that dangerous. If there was no metalic earthed things in the room then the risk of a lethal electric shock was probably very low. A few finger to finger shocks maybe would happen and provide a few lessons in not fiddling in electrical fittings.

As acknowledged by the pre-14th edition rules about when filament lamp fittings were permitted to be unearthed.

There was a time when common sense and self protection was trusted as a way to protect people. It worked for most people and the presence of risk meant that sensible people looked out for danger and avoided it.

Perhaps a few non sensible people were lost, but that could be said to be an improvment of the gene pool.

Society today, or rather the nanny state, wants to remove all risks and dangers and too many people believe that all danger has been removed and have ceased to practice self protection. And a few ( or maybe a lot ) think that if they are injured or suffer loss from something dangerous they can sue someone and have a financially secure future.

Amen.

That europa website is the european unions official website, it will also probably tell me that MEP's are honest, that EU accounts are all in order and that it makes economic sense to move headquarters between brussels and strasbourg every six months.

And some of the "myths" they've tried to "debunk" have actually been serious proposals. Yes, they can truthfully say that now there are no immediate plans for this ban or that ban, but only after a proposal has received so much negative reaction that they've practically been forced to abandon it. Except that they seldom ever really abandon a proposal, just shelve it for a few years and hope that the fuss has been forgotten by the next time they try to revive it.

 

[JohnW2]

Until then, i'm happy to accept the (perhaps simplistic) rule of thumb that the total load connected to a 13A socket should be limited to 13A. Its not too leftfield an idea and I like it

I don't think anyone has got anywhere near suggesting that anyone should contemplate attempting a load greater than 13A on a 13A socket - and, in any event, where would they find a fuse of large enough rating (>13A) to put in the plug?

This whole discussion is about double sockets - and hence the question is whether you would be happy to load both of the sockets in a double socket each with 13A (simultaneously), despite the fact that BS1363 only requires the temperature rise test to be done with a total load of 20A (not 26A).

Until IMHO, 'how it is tested' and 'what it is rated at' are two different things.

Indeed, and that's a point I keep making. I strongly suspect that a double socket with 2x13A loads would be no more of a problem than a single socket loaded at 13A, even though BS1363 does not include a test which would confirm that.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

European standards are best demonstrated by bananas. Some eurow***er decided on the shape of a standard banana.

If you look on the Europa web site you will find that that myth was debunked some years ago.

That europa website is the european unions official website, it will also probably tell me that MEP's are honest, that EU accounts are all in order and that it makes economic sense to move headquarters between brussels and strasbourg every six months.

OK - then how about this:

You go away and do some research and searching, and don't come back until you have found actual proof that such a regulation or directive exists, or ever has.

And, the truth should not be allowed to interfere with a bit of healthy euro bashing.

 

[JohnW2]

I'm certainly glad that we've seen the demise of the early 13A plugs, which had 'holes' for the cable in the cover, rather than U-shaped 'cutouts' we now see - I wish I had a pound for every time I connected such a plug, only to have to do it again when I discovered that I'd forgotten to first thread the cable through the hole!

Easily done! But "thread on" covers have continued to be employed on some designs, so it's not exclusively an age-related issue. Look at any of the current Duraplug range, for example.

Ah - but they have rubber covers, don't they - in which case the problem would be one that could easily be solved with a sturdy pair of side cutters

Mind you, having to re-do wiring a plug because of forgetting to thread the cable is nothing compared with some of the similar disasters I've experienced in my life. Probably the worst was when, in my youth, I'd just completely stripped and rebuilt the engine of my Triumph Herald, and was close to putting it back in the car when my girlfriend pointed to a couple of pristine new piston rings and inoccently asked 'where do they go?' It even lost me my girlfriend, who decided that she didn't want to be associated with someone capable of 'such foul language' as her question resulted in!

Kind Regards, John

 

[holmslaw]

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[Paul_C]

Ah - but they have rubber covers, don't they - in which case the problem would be one that could easily be solved with a sturdy pair of side cutters

That's true! Either way, at least with a simple plug like this it doesn't feel quite as bad when you realize you forgot to thread the cover on first as when you've just soldered a 50-way connector, or even a 9-way D-connector and then realize that the cover is still sitting on the bench (and, of course, the time you forget to slide the cover on first always seems to be on the second connector, so it can't just be slid on from the other end).

 

[Monkeh]

Ah - but they have rubber covers, don't they - in which case the problem would be one that could easily be solved with a sturdy pair of side cutters

That's true! Either way, at least with a simple plug like this it doesn't feel quite as bad when you realize you forgot to thread the cover on first as when you've just soldered a 50-way connector, or even a 9-way D-connector and then realize that the cover is still sitting on the bench (and, of course, the time you forget to slide the cover on first always seems to be on the second connector, so it can't just be slid on from the other end).

That's why I slide them on and tape them in place before starting work.

 

[stillp]

I'm not sure bas said/asked that.

However, in the question I asked

Oops!
Sorry