Downlight choice and installation method

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Hi all,

I want to install three downlights in my upstairs spare room to provide feature lighting for three bookcases.

The ceiling space above the room is just a loft void and is currently covered with 280mm of insulation, with joist spacing of 400mm

Looking over several topics on this forum (Fuse size for 2 (& for 3) 50W downlights on 240V ring main, Downlighters and building regs) and others forums, I was just looking for confirmation regarding my proposed installation.

I'm going to remove a section of the 100mm lower layer of insulation to accommodate the LoftCap and a fire rated downlight. This will then be covered with the upper layer of 180mm of insulation.

I'm not looking to install Halogen bulbs, so I'm looking for LED based lighting and currently considering the following brands:-
A JCC downlight probably JC94066, Firestop DLFR50GUW or Click LFFG2GUW.

I'm I going about things the right way, as one of the manuals I downloaded for JCC said that a Fireguard loft brace was recommended?

Have I missed anything else that I need to consider?

Also, am I missing something, are the JCC lights very expensive?

Thanks in advance for any comments.
 
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I have just read in this topic: fitting spotlights into 120 year old lath and plaster ceiling, that installing downlights in L&P can be an issue or at the very least a pain in the ass!

My ceiling is L&P that has been overboarded with 9mm plasterboard and then skimmed. If I had known about this, I would have removed a large section of the L&P for each of the three locations before I overboarded but you live an learn.

However, I can't do this now, so I'm up in the loft and I'm going to remove a section of the L&P (~350mmx350mm) and replace it with plasterboard. So now, the thickness of my ceiling will be a little over 20mm.

Do this still sound like a plan to met all the necessary regulations and will I have problems fitting any of the downlights I have proposed?

I can totally understand why downlighters are so hated!
 
The Loft Brace is simply a metal frame to hold insulation away from the back of the downlight to avoid overheating. It won't be much use here, since a major issue is that the back of the downlight needs to be sealed to prevent warm air from the room entering the cold loft space.

The loftcap will do this, provided it is glued to the back of the ceiling. A box constructed of plasterboard will do the same, and cost significantly less.

You don't need fire rated downlights either.
 
The loftcap will do this, provided it is glued to the back of the ceiling. A box constructed of plasterboard will do the same, and cost significantly less.
I thought I had read in another post that this wasn't sufficient. Too be honest in this scenario, 3x£7.70 (+postage+VAT) isn't big deal for this project. Although, I guess I need to take this into consideration.

You don't need fire rated downlights either.
Oh, I thought I needed them not only because of the insulation that will be placed on top but because of recent changes. Some info in this post.

Do you have any experience with the downlights I'm looking at? All the prices for JCC lights seem to be in the +£80 price mark which is too much for me!
 
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Do this still sound like a plan to met all the necessary regulations?
No, because of this:

I'm going to remove a section of the 100mm lower layer of insulation.

In E&W the Building Regulations forbid you making the thermal insulation worse, and I'd be gobsmacked if similar provisions didn't apply in Scotland and NI.
 
Right-ho mate, I think you've fallen for an all too common misconception here.

"Fire rated" doesn't mean that the downlighter won't cause a fire when it's covered in insulation, it means that it restores the fire barrier of a "fire rated" ceiling after you've drilled a big hole in it! This is only an issue with flats and other special instances. Your ceiling won't be fire rated, so you don't need fire rated fittings.
 
Right-ho mate, I think you've fallen for an all too common misconception here.

"Fire rated" doesn't mean that the downlighter won't cause a fire when it's covered in insulation, it means that it restores the fire barrier of a "fire rated" ceiling after you've drilled a big hole in it! This is only an issue with flats and other special instances. Your ceiling won't be fire rated, so you don't need fire rated fittings.

Ah. cr*p!

So if I use the FireCap and any 240V LED downlight I can cover the light with my top layer of insulation and I won't need to be concerned with anything else?

Thanks for your help.
 
1) Since you asked about regulatory compliance you need to be concerned about the fact that you will be removing a significant amount of insulation.

2) You need to check what clearances and ventilation are required if you install LED lights. They may not produce much heat but they do produce some, and they are extremely intolerant of it - whatever they produce must be got rid of.
 
Never used led downlighters but I would imagine that the driver is the same as elv transformer type in that it will over heat if not sufficiently vented( ie covered in loft insulation).
 
Do this still sound like a plan to met all the necessary regulations?
No, because of this:

I'm going to remove a section of the 100mm lower layer of insulation.

In E&W the Building Regulations forbid you making the thermal insulation worse, and I'd be gobsmacked if similar provisions didn't apply in Scotland and NI.

Sorry I missed your earlier post. I was removing the lower layer of insulation to reduce the heat build up. Thinking this would be a good thing to do.

1) Since you asked about regulatory compliance you need to be concerned about the fact that you will be removing a significant amount of insulation.

2) You need to check what clearances and ventilation are required if you install LED lights. They may not produce much heat but they do produce some, and they are extremely intolerant of it - whatever they produce must be got rid of.

So looking at this image of the LoftCap insulation hasn't been removed. So does the LoftCap allow enough free space from the surfaces of the downlighter to dissipate the heat. Or is that because the the thickness of insulation used is small.

I guess that all manufacturers have slightly differing recommendations depending on the model of downlight they produce.

I have totally got the wrong end of the stick on this topic as I have been hunting around in forums trying to find out what I need to do and I have just got caught up in confusion.

So... I think I need to start from scratch.[/b]
 
I need to install three downlights in my upstairs spare room to provide feature lighting for three bookcases I have recently installed.

The ceiling space above the room is just a loft void and is currently covered with 280mm of insulation (100mm & 180mm at 90degrees), with joist spacing of ~400mm.

The bookcases are ~150mm from the ceiling and the front edges of the bookcases are actually flush with a joist in the ceiling above.

I know the precise location of the joist above in relation to the bookcase as I have recently over boarded my lath & plaster ceiling with 9mm plasterboard and then had it skimmed.

What downlighting options do I have for installing said feature lighting? I would like to maintain as much insulation as possible to minimise heat loss from the room itself but make certain that the lights themselves aren't going to overheat.

I'm also thinking that LED based bulbs are the way to go because of the reduced heat generation but also the reduced energy consumption.

Does anyone have any advice for what lights and necessary "accessories" are required/recommended?
 
It sounds like you installed the insulation - just do what most of us do and push it out of the way.... surely a bit of heat loss is preferable to a fire???

By all means fit some sort of hood to keep the insulation away from the light fittings. As mentioned, you don't need fire rated fittings, although if you fit 'open back' ones (ie not fire rated) then the insulation (and dirt and wasps) has a habit of falling onto the lamp.

I think you'll find it OK to fit the lights as the plasterboard will to some extent hold the lathe a plaster together a bit better. You might need to watch out that the spring arms which hold the lights in the ceiling are long enough to cope with 2 layers (ie l and p and plasterboard)

Fitting d/ls in l and p can be done - but only with care!

Hope this helps

SB
 
Whatever type of fitting you finally choose, there must be some impermeable physical barrier preventing warm, moist air from the house rising into the loft, otherwise you will suffer from condensation problems in the winter.
 
It sounds like you installed the insulation - just do what most of us do and push it out of the way.... surely a bit of heat loss is preferable to a fire???

By all means fit some sort of hood to keep the insulation away from the light fittings. As mentioned, you don't need fire rated fittings, although if you fit 'open back' ones (ie not fire rated) then the insulation (and dirt and wasps) has a habit of falling onto the lamp.

I think you'll find it OK to fit the lights as the plasterboard will to some extent hold the lathe a plaster together a bit better. You might need to watch out that the spring arms which hold the lights in the ceiling are long enough to cope with 2 layers (ie l and p and plasterboard)

Fitting d/ls in l and p can be done - but only with care!

Hope this helps

SB
So I've decided to get some of the open backed downlights, in combination with the LoftCap. Although the LoftCap initially seems expensive, I figure it is better that the flower pot (or a self made plasterboard box) or leaving it open for dust, insects etc.

I definitely don't want to cause a fire and it seems that the LoftCap gives me that peace of mind whilst maintaining continuous insulation.
 

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