Earth funnies and phantom voltages on lighting circuit

[securespark]

View attachment 393674

The table's a bit off, no? I did my 16th update in 1992, the year the 16th went all BS7671, but they were first published in 1991 (pre British Standard) and not implemented until 1993. But the new colours did not come in till April 2004.

 

[Ragnar_AT]

The table's a bit off, no? I did my 16th update in 1992, the year the 16th went all BS7671, but they were first published in 1991 (pre British Standard) and not implemented until 1993. But the new colours did not come in till April 2004.

Surely earth hasn‘t been green for a long time either, has it? The table seems suggests it still can be.

 

[securespark]

Yes, as far as I know, solid green was superseded by green/ yellow, effective 1 January 1978.

 

[SUNRAY]

The table's a bit off, no? I did my 16th update in 1992, the year the 16th went all BS7671, but they were first published in 1991 (pre British Standard) and not implemented until 1993. But the new colours did not come in till April 2004.

I'm not in a position to check many dates etc but that ist is published by the IET so I'd hope it's not too faulty.
The latest colours certaily were published 2001, whether in a revised edition or Amendments I dont know.
I was made redundant April 2002 (as a direct result of 9/11) and we had been using new colours in that company for a little while.
The company I then worked for until late summer 2003 were rigidly in old colours within control panels.
The following company were building panels with either depending on specs we worked to until they folded in June 2005.
That's when I went SE and I still found I was working in both colours for a couple of years, DNO in particular were noticably using old colours longer than others. One company I subbed to were using brown, black, grey, red, yellow, blue for star delta motors as late as 2007 or 2008.

 

[JohnW2]

Pretty much.

Earthing was required to metal cases and metal frames of equipment, but not to anything which was all insulated. .... That is from the 8th edition, 1924.

Thanks - that's interesting.

However, the bit of the 8th edition you presented merely talked about what had to have an earth terminal - were there, I wonder, other regs which actually required an 'earth' to be connected to that terminal?

 

[JohnW2]

The table's a bit off, no? I did my 16th update in 1992, the year the 16th went all BS7671, but they were first published in 1991 (pre British Standard) and not implemented until 1993. But the new colours did not come in till April 2004.

Do we know what that chart ('table') related to? Although "the new colours did not come in till April 2004" is true of fixed-wring cables, the colours for flexible cables changed much earlier than that, didn't they?

 

[SUNRAY]

Surely earth hasn‘t been green for a long time either, has it? The table seems suggests it still can be.

Yes, as far as I know, solid green was superseded by green/ yellow, effective 1 January 1978.

Flex colours 'harmonised' while I was at school and I was making off stage lighting flexes, 69/70 with green/yellow earth core harmonised cable, in fixed wiring it was later - 78 feels late to me but from the head I have no dispute. Some were still using red, black, green singles way into 90's, I was diong night club work 95/96 and certainly still being used there but my first house in 83 I was using green/yellow single in conduit.

 

[securespark]

Well, as I said, the neutral in a 3 core flex was blue in the 13th Edition, but the live was still red.

In 1969, the Electrical Appliances (Colour Code) Regulations introduced the new colours in flex, but the old were permitted until 1 July 1970.

 

[securespark]

Earth sleeving for fixed wiring changed to green/ yellow only after 1 January 1978.

Flexes had already changed from 1 July 1970 to green/ yellow and blue/ brown, but harmonised didn't appear in the wholesalers until April 2004 and was mandatory as far as I can remember from April 2005.

From memory, you could use one or the other in installations in that year, but not both in the same install.

Edited because of stupid "smart" phone.

 

[SUNRAY]

Do we know what that chart ('table') related to? Although "the new colours did not come in till April 2004" is true of fixed-wring cables, the colours for flexible cables changed much earlier than that, didn't they?

I managed to find the origin of that table

The history of colour identification of conductors

We consider identification of conductors by colour as the norm today, but it wasn’t always the case, as prior to 1916 conductors were not typically identified by colour.

electrical.theiet.org

 

[plugwash]

I'm not in a position to check many dates etc but that ist is published by the IET so I'd hope it's not too faulty.

I don't know where precisely that image came from, but it happens all too often that a supposedly reputable oganisation puts out content written by some hack who doesn't know what they are talkig about. Does anyone remember the shining turd that was the IEC "world plugs" page.

If they can't even distinguish between the original 16th edition and it's amendments and they don't know that green has been out of use for years why should anyone belive the rest of the chart?!

 

[SUNRAY]

Earth sleeving for fixed wiring changed to green/ yellow only after 1 January 1978.

I feel green/yellow single was in use a couple of years before that, we were using it on a course I did as an apprentice 72-75

I think I'm reading some of this wrong

Flexes had already changed from 1 July 1970 to green/ yellow and blue/ brown,but harmonised didn't appear in the wholesalers until April 2004 and was mandatory as far as I can remember from April 2005.

Harmonised multicore flex was 69/70 but red/black was available much later and even red,black,green/yellow appeared

but harmonised didn't appear in the wholesalers until April 2004 and was mandatory as far as I can remember from April 2005.

From memory, you could use one or the other in installations in that year, but not both in the same install.

With respect I started using harmonised coloured singles towards the end in a job where I worked 96 to 2002, way before 'the changeover'. However I can't recall when I first used harmonised T&E/3C&E.
02-03 all old colours
03-05 varied by contract
05 for a couple of years still using both depending on employer.

 

[plugwash]

I managed to find the origin of that table

The history of colour identification of conductors

We consider identification of conductors by colour as the norm today, but it wasn’t always the case, as prior to 1916 conductors were not typically identified by colour.

electrical.theiet.org

Interesting article, I'd guess some style guide required an image on every article and some non-expert skimmed the article and tried to draw one up.

 

[JohnW2]

With respect I started using harmonised coloured singles towards the end in a job where I worked 96 to 2002, way before 'the changeover'.

Is it perhaps possible that some people/manufacturers regarded 'singles' as flexible cables?

 

[securespark]

I feel green/yellow single was in use a couple of years before that, we were using it on a course I did as an apprentice 72-75

G/Y was introduced in the second amendment of the 14th on 1 April 1976. Its use was supposed to be mandatory from 1 January 1978.

Harmonised multicore flex was 69/70 but red/black was available much later

Yes, the new flex colour regs came in in 1969 and the old were supposedly allowed until 1 July 1970.
I suppose these dates get stretched out if lots of stock is bought up.

I knew a house bashing spark who would buy several 1000 metres of cables when prices were good, so it would take him a while to use it up.

With respect I started using harmonised coloured singles towards the end in a job where I worked 96 to 2002, way before 'the changeover'. However I can't recall when I first used harmonised T&E/3C&E.

I only ever saw harmonised cables after 1 April 2004.

02-03 all old colours
03-05 varied by contract
05 for a couple of years still using both depending on employer.

I suppose that goes back to what I was saying about using up old stock.

From 1 April 2004, harmonised colours or the old colours could be used, but not both. From 1 April 2006, it was harmonised colours only.

So, I apologise, the changeover period was not 1 year, but 2.