EICR Questions

[WhydidIstart]

Exactly. As a consumer in this situation it is at best confusing and at worst misleading.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Ericmark – you mentioned “some areas of the UK you must have undergone resent training to be able to do an EICR on rented property.” Do you know which areas these are, is there a list somewhere?

Might only be Scotland - if at all.

EFLImpudence said “Incidentally, what inspection or verification of work do they do to an electrician for him to become an 'approved contractor'? Does this include testing to carry out EICRs?”

I don't know.

I was trying to find out the difference in actual evaluation between ACs and DIs and whether AC includes EICRs - I see from your first link that they do.

 

[WhydidIstart]

Just reading through the DI Scheme Rules document on the NICEIC site and under registration it has:

(8) Branded forms shall be issued only for Domestic Electrical Installation Work carried out or managed by You.
(9) You shall safeguard all branded forms so as to prevent their misuse.
(10) You shall notify Us in writing immediately on discovery of any loss or theft of branded forms.
Page

So is an EICR "Domestic Electrical Installation Work"?

According to the Definitions section of the same document, inspection and testing is included:

"Domestic Electrical Installation Work means the design, construction, inspection, testing and/or maintenance of work falling within the scope of BS 7671 and Approved Document P (Electrical Safety - Dwellings)."

So it seems somewhat harsh for the NICEIC to say in their response to me:

"The NICEIC Domestic Installers Scheme is designed to cover the requirements of the building regulations for electrical installation work in a dwelling and therefore does not cover EICR’s.

Although the contractor may well be competent to carry out this type of work as we have not assessed him for competence under this scheme he is not covered by any NICEIC assurances or warranties."

 

[EFLImpudence]

It would appear difficult to cover all that in the "two jobs, half day assessment".

 

[EFLImpudence]

So is an EICR "Domestic Electrical Installation Work"?

That is up to the NICEIC as it is only they who made up the designation.

According to the Definitions section of the same document, inspection and testing is included:

"Domestic Electrical Installation Work means the design, construction, inspection, testing and/or maintenance of work falling within the scope of BS 7671 and Approved Document P (Electrical Safety - Dwellings)."

So it seems somewhat harsh for the NICEIC to say in their response to me:

"The NICEIC Domestic Installers Scheme is designed to cover the requirements of the building regulations for electrical installation work in a dwelling and therefore does not cover EICR’s.

Although the contractor may well be competent to carry out this type of work as we have not assessed him for competence under this scheme he is not covered by any NICEIC assurances or warranties."

I agree with you, although -

the reference to inspection and testing likely only applies to the inspection and testing of their own work - even though it is exactly the same as that involved in an EICR and when replacing a consumer unit.

 

[JohnW2]

(8) Branded forms shall be issued only for Domestic Electrical Installation Work carried out or managed by You.

That's all very well, but you are telling us that they appear to provide (sell!) "(Domestic Installer) Branded" forms that could be used for nothing other than an EICR.

I would think that NICEIC need to be asked about this - in particular what would be the purpose of such forms if EICRs do not come within the scope of "Domestic Electrical Installation Work" (in which case, as per above rule, a Domestic Installer would not be allowed to 'issue' such forms)!

Kind Regards, John

 

[John D v2.0]

-

the reference to inspection and testing likely only applies to the inspection and testing of their own work - even though it is exactly the same as that involved in an EICR and when replacing a consumer unit.

Not quite the same, inspection/testing your own work would be to your own formulaic design usually, whereas in an eicr you would be checking existing work which may have deteriorated and be to previous regs for for compliance which may be too an unusual design, and using a lot of judgement to decide if it's compliant/safe.
I would say your own work needs less skill then existing.

 

[SimonH2]

You missed out ...
For your own work, you know the topology of the circuits you've installed. You know if you've installed an RFC as a ring or a lollypop, you know if a radial is 4mm² all the way or if there's 2.5mm² segments in it, etc, etc.
It's the difference between making a black box and knowing what you put inside it (and testing to see if the results are correct), vs being handed a black box and figuring out what's inside it just by measuring at the terminals*.

* A reference to the old lab practical in physics or electrics where you have a box with 3 terminals and have to figure out what resistors are inside it - being told only if they are connected in star or delta.

 

[seasickstevie]

Not with a board change you don't.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I think what John and Simon are really saying is that some Domestic Installers are not really competent enough to even be Domestic Installers.

That is assuming that 'installer' in NICEIC's category means 'competent to fit from scratch a compliant electrical installation' rather than just able to install cables.
If that is the case then I stand by what I said.
If it is not the case then the system is not fit for purpose.

It's the difference between making a black box and knowing what you put inside it (and testing to see if the results are correct), vs being handed a black box and figuring out what's inside it just by measuring at the terminals*.

* A reference to the old lab practical in physics or electrics where you have a box with 3 terminals and have to figure out what resistors are inside it - being told only if they are connected in star or delta.

I think that illustrates my view quite well.

If you can design the box and understand the results - or more importantly design the box for required results - then you can likely test other boxes.

 

[JohnW2]

That's all very well, but you are telling us that they appear to provide (sell!) "(Domestic Installer) Branded" forms that could be used for nothing other than an EICR.

I'm getting confused again! ....

If one looks at the forms offered for sale on the NICEIC website, the list of forms for Domestic Installers does not include EICR forms. Although that makes sense in terms of what NICEIC have said about DIs and EICRs, it begs the question as to where the forms the OP has actually 'came from'!

WhydidIstart: at risk of appearing to doubt you, just to be absolutely certain, can you confirm that all pages of the the EICR you have bear not only the NICEIC logo but also the adjacent "Domestic Installer" logo?

Kind Regards, John

 

[John D v2.0]

Not with a board change you don't.

Good point didn't read as far as the board change bit, thanks!
Having said that, given the op has supposedly had an eicr done, i was referring to that specifically.

 

[John D v2.0]

think what John and Simon are really saying is that some Domestic Installers are not really competent enough to even be Domestic Installers.

That is assuming that 'installer' in NICEIC's category means 'competent to fit from scratch a compliant electrical installation' rather than just able to install cables.
If that is the case then I stand by what I said.
If it is not the case then the system is not fit for purpose.

Depending which John you mean, i think domestic installers just need to be competent to given a requirement, design and install a compliant installation. Whereas an approved contractor must be able to given an installation, decide whether it's compliant, and also classify the safety implications of the non compliance.
I'm sure the approved contractor deals with installations that are compliant but are not how they would even design and install a circuit. Whereas the DI would not have that problem to the same degree.

 

[seasickstevie]

I'm sure the approved contractor deals with installations that are compliant but are not how they would even design and install a circuit. Whereas the DI would not have that problem to the same degree.

If that is the case, I think NICEIC (and Napit etc if it applies to others) need to make that fact perfectly clear to all.

Especially when it seems that some contractors (including myself) are unsure what exactly these descriptions mean.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Depending which John you mean,

You, of course, as you disagreed with what I wrote - along with Simon.

i think domestic installers just need to be competent to given a requirement, design and install a compliant installation.

Whereas an approved contractor must be able to given an installation, decide whether it's compliant, and also classify the safety implications of the non compliance.

Perhaps you could explain the difference between the two and why a DI should/would not be able to classify the safety implications - if competent to install it.

There are many instances on the forum where an EICR has been undertaken by someone clearly not competent to do it. I would maintain that they therefore are not competent to be a domestic installer either.

I'm sure the approved contractor deals with installations that are compliant but are not how they would even design and install a circuit. Whereas the DI would not have that problem to the same degree.

I have no idea what that means.