Electrical Work, Building Control.

[RB2004]

Hi, just a quick question.

going to be fitting a new kitchen soon, and will be rewiring it, now in keeping with 17th edition it will need to be RCD/RCBO protected, but the consumer unit current is the old fused wire type.

Im going down the route of building control, because it will probably work out a bit cheaper than an electrician, and will allow me to do the work in my own time, then get inspected by the building control as i go along and signed off.

But what I wanted to know is, seeming as i will be involving building control anyway for this job, can I get away with swapping the consumer unit and updating the circuits with equipotential bonding at the same time?

If I can, plan was to get a Periodic Electrical Inspection done first.. so I know the current state of the wiring, and have a rough idea of what needs doing to bring the circuits up to modern standards. Then once I had this, do any remedial work, upgrade the consumer unit, install a new circuit possibly for smoke alarms and put in equipotential bonding in the bathroom and on the boiler, and then re--wire the kitchen as part of the kitchen fit with equipotential bonding. At present because of the age of the wiring, there is no equipotential bonding.

Or will they try to charge me for 2 inspections/jobs.

if I can get this all signed off by building control as 1 job id like to hit 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak.. as the consumer unit is due for an upgrade, kitchen needs re-wiring as part of the refit and im sure present circuits could be improved so they are safer by modern standards.

Also, how much would I be looking at for the Periodic inspection report, and building control fees roughly?

Thanks.

 

[oharaf]

If I can, plan was to get a Periodic Electrical Inspection done first.. so I know the current state of the wiring, and have a rough idea of what needs doing to bring the circuits up to modern standards. Then once I had this, do any remedial work, upgrade the consumer unit, install a new circuit possibly for smoke alarms and put in equipotential bonding in the bathroom and on the boiler, and then re--wire the kitchen as part of the kitchen fit with equipotential bonding. At present because of the age of the wiring, there is no equipotential bonding.


Do you know what a Periodic will cost you?

Are you 'Competent' to carryout a CU change?

To be brutally honest I suspect the answer to both questions is no!!!

I very much doubt your LABC will come and inspect & TEST your circuits, that will be every circuit in the house if you change the CU!!!!!!

So lets say your periodic costs £250, Your DIY CU change £150, Your LABC fees £200, Your new circuits in the kitchen DIY'd £100, You are then told by LABC to provide a certificate for all your circuits because they don't do testing £XXX You are already£700+ with no certificate and an unsellable house!!!!!!!!!

So then weight it up using a sparky, £350 CU change, 'supervised' installation for your new circuits £100 - £150 Total £500

You are still £200 better off, you have the all important certificate and the sparky will notify the work for you.


No brainer, get a sparks!!!!!

 

[RB2004]

I wasnt aware many electricians would do a supervised installation, whereby they advise, come in and check the work as its done? thought most will only do all the work themselves so they can sign it off as their own.

If I can find an electrician to come in and inspect the work as I go along as a "supervised" installation, then sign it off all the better... as I would ideally like to install wired smoke alarms as well, and do any remedial work myself ready for then when they change over the cu then they can test all the circuits and provide the certificate, I am reasonably competant at electrics and have never done anything without following the regulations, which is why I want to do this job and keep within the law and part P.. have even purchased a copy of the 17th edition im reading through at the moment.. so I can refer to this as I go along, so a supervised install would be ideal for me.

 

[flameport]

I wasnt aware many electricians would do a supervised installation, whereby they advise, come in and check the work as its done?.

What this normally means is that you do all the rubbish work, such as chasing walls, lifting floorboards and fitting the metal backboxes for sockets/switches.

The electrician installs the cables and fits the accessories.
It MAY be possible for you to install some of the cables, but all of these will need to be visible for their entire length.

You then have to put the floorboards back, plaster the walls and so on.

 

[RB2004]

hmm, might need to go the more expensive route then with building control then, I dont mind leaving the cables exposed along their entire length for inspection, id have to do that anyway for building control..

just need to be able to do alot of the work myself as alot of it would be done over weekends and evenings, so it needs to be in my own time. which is why it was preferable for me to do it myself,

Inspections by an electrician or building control are ok, because I can make time for this, as it would only be a few hours most or a few minutes least to check the progress.. but wouldnt be able to have days and days off while an electrcian comes in to do work.

 

[RB2004]

I very much doubt your LABC will come and inspect & TEST your circuits, that will be every circuit in the house if you change the CU!!!!!!

I have just read this, on a government website,

"This means in our opinion that local authorities do not have the power to require householders to retain an electrician to test and certificate the work in accordance with BS 7671. Local authorities which have adopted such a practice should discontinue it immediately."

http://www.communities.gov.uk/plann...ionalcircularletters/buildingregulationspart/

So, providing I pay the fee to building control, I provide evidence of planning, submit a planning application, get it checked at 1st fix and when finished. This should allow me to do the work myself as long as its done to the correct standard, and according to that statement on the government site, testing and inspection should not be at my expense or my problem.. but rather building control.

But I will clarify anyway using these contact details,
Any enquiries on this circular letter should be addressed to the Enquiries help line on 0207 944 4400, or sent to us at [email protected]

Signed by Anne Hemming, Head of Buildings Division

Communities and Local Government


listed at the bottom of that page just to be sure, as previously said I do intend to keep within the law, and do everything to standards required.. have even invested in 17th edition for reference which im reading through presently to ensure this.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You are then told by LABC to provide a certificate for all your circuits because they don't do testing £XXX

Since in this case friendly relations with a BCO are not important, as there's no actual building work involved, the thing to do there would be to tell them to stick their illegal demand where the sun doesn't shine, and proceed to make the biggest fuss since Toxteth.

an unsellable house!!!!!!!!!

A slight exaggeration, methinks.

 

[RB2004]

Hi, dont have anything against electricians, I appreciate you are all trained, and doing this kinda thing day in, day out and are fully qualified and specialise in this area of work.

just, in my case the work will be done of an evening and weekends in my own time, and im not one of these people who will just jump in, break the law, and do things to an unsafe standard.

I have looked into the possible routes for doing this, and what building control are allowed to do and not. Purchased a copy of the 17th edition wiring regulations. I am reasonably competant as Im technically and mechanically minded... and most of my work is above a DIY standard.

So as long as I follow the 17th edition wiring regulations, get everything properly tested, inspected and certificated there shouldnt be a problem with doing things myself, and if anything I do is not to a competant standard or unsafe it wont pass inspection and testing.

Also, thing is, even if I get an electrician in to fit the consumer unit.. that wont include the pre-testing to ensure all the circuits are safe, and if they find any problems they will want to charge me to put them right.

So id rather do a Periodic Inspection initially, find out the state of my wiring before I go any further, which is always a good idea anyway seeming the recomended interval for a house i have read is around 10 years and the wiring in this house is about 35 years old.. Then If building control are willing to inspect everything in 1 go, do the wiring for the smoke alarms, consumer unit, and kitchen re-wire in 1 go, as well as fixing any issues highlighted by the Periodic inspection report... as I imagine this amount of work, plus charges by an electrcian would not cost much less, and id be at the disadvantage where I cannot do the work in my own time... and so id have to take days off work.

dont have any experience with building control and part p, but I would of thought as long as I submit a planning application, where I sufficiently plan out the work im planning to carry out, there shouldnt be a problem with them signing off everything in 1 go.. but could be wrong.

Thanks.

 

[Paul_C]

You are then told by LABC to provide a certificate for all your circuits because they don't do testing £XXX

Since in this case friendly relations with a BCO are not important, as there's no actual building work involved, the thing to do there would be to tell them to stick their illegal demand where the sun doesn't shine, and proceed to make the biggest fuss since Toxteth.

Quite so. It has been made clear that councils are not permitted to insist that you pay separately for testing & certification. If you have paid a building fee to the LABC, it is up to them to inspect & test if they feel it necessary, or to pay somebody else to do it out of the fee you have paid. They are not allowed to demand a further fee.

As usual with the arrogant dictators in local councils, some are still trying this on, even though they've been told in no uncertain terms to stop. So don't be bullied by them.

Neither are they permitted to charge an additional "Part P" fee for the electrical work, separate from the usual fees for the entire project, as some have tried to do. You don't pay separate fees for Part A, Part B, Part C, etc., and electrical is no different. The building fee you pay for the entire project covers the entire project (not applicable in this instance, but worth mentioning).

 

[LiamPope]

.. have even invested in 17th edition for reference which im reading through presently to ensure this.

I'd start with the OSG if I were you (and I was a year ago ), and maybe John Whitfield's more in depth guide to the 17th. Delve into the big book itself only if you really have to! To tell the truth I very rarely have in doing a full DIY rewire.

Good luck with your LABC. I unfortunately have one of the naughty ones who refuse to test, though they did inspect. Well, they sent round some numpty who looked to at least know about safe zones (as he spent a couple of minutes noting the few cables he looked at were in them), if nothing else. This matter is still ongoing. Currently trying to get them to accept an EIC from myself as I can do all the testing. We'll see.

Liam

 

[RB2004]

Hi, thanks, will get the on site guide as well

have you tried the contact details on this page?

http://www.communities.gov.uk/plann...ionalcircularletters/buildingregulationspart/

your LABC is not following the rules, and the contact details are there are a government helpline.. so maybe if its reported to government themselves they can persue it further with your LABC.

 

[LiamPope]

Unfortunately the guidance in Approved Doc. P and stern letters from the government are not The Law. My LABC have decided that they therefore can, and will ignore all that. If they dont take up my hassle and cost-free offer of providing them with an EIC myself, I embark on a long path of stirring up as much trouble as I can, eventually ending in court if I can stomach it. Yay

 

[RB2004]

wonder how many other people are in your situation, maybe somebody should start up a group, multiple people fighting the same cause is better than a single person.

As it is not right that people doing DIY electrics is completely written off, no dis-respect to electricians who do a great job.

and its not right for LABC to make it difficult for people to sign off work like this when they have tried to stay within the law.. many people are still doing work illegally without proper knowledge or even using 17th edition for reference. So when you go to the trouble of submitting a planning application, doing a job to the relevant regulations and to a safe standard they should co-operate... by not co-operating they are putting people off going through the proper channels and encouraging work to be done illegally.

Proving somebody follows the 17th edition regulations, and works to a safe standard and following the law, I dont see the problem with people doing DIY Electrics, its the people who dont do any of this who should be prevented from doing the work.

Sometimes in the case of us, we are capable, and with the proper guidance and reference to the regulations are capable, in which case like me, will be intending on doing the work after work on weekends. but to get an electrician in would mean time off work.. so why shouldnt I be allowed to do the work, as long as its signed off properly... if what i do is not safe then it wont pass the inspection and testing.

Because when it comes down to it, Part P wasnt put in place to prevent people from doing DIY electrics altogether, it was put in place to uphold the wiring regulations and a certain level of safety, and stop people from doing electrics to a dangerous standard that can harm themselves or other people. They cant completely ban people from doing work in their own homes, because its the homeowners property and you are entitled to a certain level of freedom, as long as you keep to the building regulations, which is understandable because if you dont your endangering other people and yourself.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'd start with the OSG if I were you (and I was a year ago ), and maybe John Whitfield's more in depth guide to the 17th. Delve into the big book itself only if you really have to! To tell the truth I very rarely have in doing a full DIY rewire.

I agree, and some of the more relevant GNs too.

RB - trying to learn how to do things by reading the wiring regulations is a bit like trying to learn a foreign language by reading a dictionary...

Unfortunately the guidance in Approved Doc. P and stern letters from the government are not The Law. My LABC have decided that they therefore can, and will ignore all that. If they dont take up my hassle and cost-free offer of providing them with an EIC myself, I embark on a long path of stirring up as much trouble as I can, eventually ending in court if I can stomach it. Yay

Then stir up trouble - be as big a stirrer as you possibly can. There are all sorts of things you can do short of going to court - complain to your MP, complain to your councillors, write to the borough solicitor asking him if he is aware that council employees are demanding things with no legal authority and which the government have said they must not demand, make a complaint to (what used to be called the District Auditor) about them taking your money and not providing the service, write to local press and radio, get on a phone in. Basically be the squeakiest wheel there ever was.

As for court action, I wonder if you could use the small claims court procedure to get your fee back, if you've paid it?

 

[davelx]

Right and wrong don't come into it with BC. Having talked to my local LABC about this, one of the main problems is that when Part P was brought in, they were not given any training, any funding to arrange training or to employ qualified staff, or any funding to sub-contract the I&T out to an external electrician, which is an ongoing additional expense.

Basically they were dropped in it and nothing has really changed. This is why they tend to be against notified electrical work unless the person doing the work is at able to do/ or arranges and pay for his own testing and provides them with an EIC. They simply don't have the resources, human or financial, to do what the government expects them to do.

So best idea IMO is to have a friendly chat with them, show some understanding of their side of it and see what you can agree with them before you start. I believe they are actually human beings.