Electricians Beware!

I see. So if I had used unnecessary force against a policeman, or another demonstrator, force which a post-mortem examination showed caused his death, and his death had been officially classified as unlawful killing, what odds would you give on me effectively getting away with it?
Obviously not very good odds! However, I'm not sure what point you are try to make. It was a jury that acquitted him - are you suggesting that the the jury was corrupt, 'nobbled', in love with the police force, stupid or what? Or are you perhaps sugegsting that, because of the facts you state, they should have convicted him even if they were not convinced by the available evidence? Or what?

Kind Regards, John
 
Man dead.

Unlawful killing verdict.

Doesn't seem to be any dispute as to who was the cause.

Not guilty verdict.


Jury or Coroner wrong?
 
Man dead. Unlawful killing verdict. Doesn't seem to be any dispute as to who was the cause. Not guilty verdict. Jury or Coroner wrong?
Perhaps neither, since there are totally different 'burdens of proof'. A jury in a criminal case has to be satisfied of guilt 'beyond a reasonable doubt' in order to convict. A coroner, or coroner's jury, only has to work to the 'civil' burden of proof - "on the balance of probabilities". In other words, a coroner (or coroner's jury) can return an 'unlawful killing' vedict if they think there is a 51% probability of that being true - whereas the criminal jury have to be far more convinced than that in order to convict anyone of the alleged killing.

Kind Regards, John
 
I bow to your superior knowledge of the workings of the law.
The difference between the required levels of certainty ('burden of proof') required by criminal and civil/coroners courts is probably not as widely understood as it should be, but means that one has to be quite cautious in interpreting civil court judgements and coroner's verdicts. As I said, at worst it can mean only a perceived "51%" probability that the judgement/verdict is correct.
I was merely applying that rare phenomenon - common sense. ... If your think this is satisfactory - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19620627 You are far more tolerant than I am.
The problem is that it's not that simple. My gut feelings (as, I imagine, most people's gut feelings) are the same as yours. However, for some reason (which neither you nor I know), a jury could not be convinced 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that he was guilty of manslaughter. Is it really for you or I (invoking appeals to 'common sense' and feelings of what is, or is not, 'satisfactory') to say that we are right, and the jury was wrong, and thereby potentially send a man to prison for life - particularly given that, as above, there may be anything up to a 49% probability that the coroner's verdict was 'wrong'? I'll try to look up the case, since it would be interest to read the judge's Summing Up - that might well give some insight into what put some 'reasonable doubt' into the minds of the jury.

Kind Regards, John
 
With double jeopardy gone they should have another go - I am sure the state would if it were a career criminal getting off in similar circumstances
 
are you suggesting that the the jury was corrupt, 'nobbled', in love with the police force, stupid or what?
I'm suggesting that too many people, like the police themselves, and the judiciary, and the CPS, believe that there really is one law for the police and one for the rest of us.

But we are deep into GD territory here, and really should stop going OT.
 
Yes. Some sort of "enquiry/investigation". When was the last time a policeman was convicted of murder, or even manslaughter when his actions caused a death which a coroner's court ruled was unlawful killing?
Dunno whether it's ever happened (murder is obviously unlikely) - but I do know that, this very day, one was sacked as a result of an "enquiry/investigation", despite the fact that the criminal justice system had not regarded the evidence as strong enough for a criminal conviction.

Kind Regards, John

He was dismissed after accepting the Gross Misconduct charge, not manslaughter.
 
With double jeopardy gone they should have another go - I am sure the state would if it were a career criminal getting off in similar circumstances
Double jeopardy may have (just about) 'gone' as a universal concept, but the requirements (in terms of new evidence) for allowing 'another go' are extremely tight - and I'm not at all sure that there is any appreciable new evidence in relation to the alleged manslaughter charge, is there? If you think that they should 'have another go', what do you think would be the grounds - your disagreeing with the previous jury's verdict obvioulsy is not an acceptable reason!

Kind Regards, John
 
are you suggesting that the the jury was corrupt, 'nobbled', in love with the police force, stupid or what?
I'm suggesting that too many people, like the police themselves, and the judiciary, and the CPS, believe that there really is one law for the police and one for the rest of us.
So you're suggesting that the jury acquitted him on the basis of evidence that would have caused them the convict a non-policeman? Why would that have been? - the general public (from whom the jury was drawn) are not really known for having total faith and confidence in the police, are they?
But we are deep into GD territory here, and really should stop going OT.
Is this BAS talking? have you turned over a new leaf? :-)

Kind Regards, John
 
So you're suggesting that the jury acquitted him on the basis of evidence that would have caused them the convict a non-policeman?
There's a strong likelihood.


Why would that have been? - the general public (from whom the jury was drawn) are not really known for having total faith and confidence in the police, are they?
I served on a jury once, and there were two people who openly expressed the belief that the police did not lie, and that if they said the defendant was guilty then he must be.

There are, there really are, a lot of people who think that because the police do a difficult job that they really should be excused behaviour which others are not.

AIUI, manslaughter does not require intent or premeditation. You strike someone and cause their unlawful death then you are guilty of manslaughter, whatever your intentions were or were not.
 
So you're suggesting that the jury acquitted him on the basis of evidence that would have caused them the convict a non-policeman?
There's a strong likelihood.
I see!
There are, there really are, a lot of people who think that because the police do a difficult job that they really should be excused behaviour which others are not.
Are there? Fifty years ago, you would probably have been be right but the impression I get is that the bulk of public opinion has swing entirely in the otehr direction.

In any event, as discussed below, I don't think that the facts about what this policeman did are particularly in dispute - what the jury had to decide was the 'legal' question as to whether those actions (which probably resulted in the death) were ones which could reasonably be expected to result in death or serious injury - regardless of who was responsible.

AIUI, manslaughter does not require intent or premeditation. You strike someone and cause their unlawful death then you are guilty of manslaughter, whatever your intentions were or were not.
As you say, there does not have to be intent to kill (which would usually be murder, anyway) or even to do serious harm for manslaughter to have been comitted. On the other hand, being the cause of someone's death is obviously not always manslaughter. As you say, it's all crucially dependent upon whether the death was 'unlawful' - and, as I explained yesterday, one certainly cannot rely (in a criminal court) on a coroner's court ('balance of probabilities) verdict of "unlawful killing".

'Grey area' cases of this type are pretty common. Person A does (or does not do) something which results, directly or indirectly, in the death of person B. If what Person A did was not something that would 'normally be expected' to result in death or serious injury, then it is not 'unlawful killing', hence not manslaughter, and may not even be a crime at all. An example might be a very minor assault (e.g. a light punch to the abdomen) which, as a 'fluke' consequence of very bad luck, happened to result in fatal damage. In such cases, the jury therefore have to make a decision about whether the act in question would 'normally be expected' to result in death or serious injury - and one can but assume that, in the case we're discussing, they decided that it wouldn't. As I said yesterday, if I can get hold of the judge's Suming Up, that may be very illuminating.

Kind Regards, John
 
He was dismissed after accepting the Gross Misconduct charge, not manslaughter.
That's what we're discussing - a jury did not feel that there was strong enough evidence to convict him of manslaughter.

Kind Regards, John

If the coroner had ruled accidental death and the jury acquitted him of manslaughter, he would still have been guilty of conduct which briught discredit to the met. That's what the enquiry was looking at. The legal proceedings were separate issues and the fact he was acquitted was irrelevant.
 
If the coroner had ruled accidental death
The Coroner ruled 'unlawful killing'.

and the jury acquitted him of manslaughter, he would still have been guilty of conduct which briught discredit to the met. That's what the enquiry was looking at.
Yes.

The legal proceedings were separate issues and the fact he was acquitted was irrelevant.
Not quite irrelevant.
He was the cause of an unlawful killing.
Plus his past behaviour.

The hearing was expected to last four weeks but was over in a day.

I feel the result is more a consequence of the timing.
After the Hillsborough outcome last week the powers that be realise they have to be seen to be doing something.

Monday's hearing was told PC Harwood had twice offered to resign from the Met over the incident. But an officer who is suspended can only leave the force with the approval of the deputy commissioner.

Consequently, because he has not been convicted of an offence, he gets to keep his pension.
 

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