Ensuite Stud Wall - Sole Plate on Joists or Floorboards?

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Hi All,

I am planning to build an ensuite in my master bedroom and am unsure as to whether i should secure the sole plate right on the joists or on the floor boards. Most sources I have read say to just secure the sole plate to the floorboards, but as I will be taking up the floor to run pipe work to the ensuite and into the cavities I thought it would be easier to secure the sole plate to the joists and then but up the flooring to the edges (adding noggins where the stud wall runs between joists).

I would be interested in what approach people think is best?

Cheers

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We always build the stud walls off the floorboards.

As in your diagram, this may mean making provision beforehand like fitting double joists or fitting noggins, but always after the floor boards have been laid.
 
Thanks noseall,

In regards to running pipe work, i assume it would therefore to be best to run the pipes to the point where they will meet the stud cavity, then secure the floor boards, secure the sole plate, build the stud and then continue the pipe work into the cavity?
 
My scenario is where there is access from the ceiling below and applies mainly to ongoing extension work where ceilings are yet to be fitted.

If you feel there is a strong case that the boards may need to be lifted in the future and that you are likely to do so, then there is no reason why you can't fit the boards so they are not trapped. A lot of work, but doable. It involves fitting a secondary support noggin that catches the board ends and shadows the wall profile.

But your assumption of works (regards pipework) is spot on.

You would leave the pipe tails sticking above the floorboards (6"or so) in the centre of the assumed sole plate position. The sole plate would then be fitted over these tails drilling holes in the sole plate to suit.
 
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Thanks again,

The bedroom is directly above the kitchen and I have no plans to replace the ceiling in there, so access from below is out of the question! As the stud is being erected for an ensuite I am enclined to put in the extra work and add the required support noggins so the floor boards sit next to the sole plate and are not trapped, so if there is any issue with the pipework in the future I can get to it without cutting any boards.

The whole floor is going to be up anyway for the pipe work to be run, so I may as well take the time and add the support nogins etc.
 
Hi Rich,

In that case I don't suppose you could give any advice on how you went about things? I am still in the planning stage and am unsure about the best order to go about installing the ensuite. I was thinking get stud work up, then run pipe work into cavities for shower/basin, install shower tray, run waste then finally board and tile.
 
Hi Rich,

In that case I don't suppose you could give any advice on how you went about things?
Will come back with details later & my drawings if I can work out how to load them :rolleyes:
 
I've build 3 of these now in my ever expanding house (and I'm a true DIYer) :)

always built of floorboards, studwalls isn't exactly heavy although a couple of mine did have rads fitted to them later for the bedroom so something to think about I guess.

to build them, I first built the studwork, then ran pipework, then fitted plasterboard on the inside of ensuite, tiled, fitting toilet/sink/bath etc.. and used it for a while before fitting plasterboard on bedroom side of walls - so I could see if there were any leaks
 
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Mine is the same shape but I nicked an alcove from the bedroom on the right which involved building a new, sound insulated stud wall which is a Building Regs requirement in any stud between a room with a w/c & another habitable room. I had to knock an opening through but couldn’t shorten the wall next to the shower as it supports a humongous timber roof beam. It was a bit of a compromise but we particularly wanted an en-suite & although it looks a bit claustrophobic on the drawing, in reality it works well & provides sufficient space. New stack with an AAAV is fitted behind a false enclosure at the back of the loo; shower/sink wastes are shown in dotted. 2.5 Bar whole house pump lives behind an access panel on the floor behind the wash basin near the base of a new 175 litre HWS cylinder. A new as is 250 litre CWS tank was also fitted in the loft which was raised around 200mm to avoid any possible negative head problems; there is another shower with drencher head in the bathroom. All this involved a considerable amount of plumbing work replacing most of the original pipe work, fitting new full bore isolator valves throughout & a thermostatic control valve (TCV) to the main HW feed. This was necessary to limit the temperature to 60 degrees (to avoid cooking the pump) as I also have a solar HW system; I think it’s now a BR requirement on new installations.

As I had all the f/boards up, I fitted additional support noggins to the joists & fixed the stud sole plates to those with support noggins either side for the floor. I retained the original boards in the bedroom but the en-suite was re-boarded with new 18mm WBP after adding some additional support noggins providing a really solid base for the 300 x 300mm ceramic floor tiles which are at the same level as the bedroom carpeted floor. Stone resin shower tray is laid on a mortar bed as per manufacturers instructions. Sink waste run was across the joists so I had to drop down below the ceiling into the stack & box in; not really noticeable from below though; also had to use 40mm due to length of run. Shower waste is 50mm on a very short pipe run straight into a separate stack connection; new stack & foul drain was run to an existing inspection hatch, all has been inspected & by LABC. Shower plumbing is insulated 22mm (copper) & runs from the pump through isolator valves into the stud cavity up to the mixer valve; 15mm from there to an 8 inch drencher head. Plumbing for towel rail teed of the main 22mm delivery return runs under the floor Extractor fan is fitted above the loo with isolation switch on the wall outside so you can switch it off at night.

I used 15mm Soundblock on the R/H stud wall with internal sound insulation; use 12.5mm MR plasterboard inside the rest of the room except inside the shower; 2 walls were already plaster over block but I used waterproof tile backer board on the R/H stud. Not necessary to skim the PB where fixing tiles but I used 600 x 300mm tiles & you need a cement based adhesive for that. If you skim MR boards, it must be primed first but not using PVA.

Had a few problems with the image loading successfully but that's me as I'm not used to using images in posts, hopefully it shows up well; come back if you need anything further.
 
Wow! Thanks Rich, that gives me loads to go on.

I have quickly drawn up a plan of the proposed layout (not to scale). I am proposing to add a horizontal run to the existing soilstack for the toilet waste (which will pass under a window; would that be an issue as from what I have read the only restriction if that the vent on the main stack has to be above any open window?)

In regards to building regs I am a little unsure what needs to be regulated and when. From what I understand the following regs apply:

* ensuite must provide adequate ventilation (the ensuite is being added to a section of the room with a window, so I presume this would be fine)

* electrics in the space must meet part P regs (the shower is going to be a mixer added to an existing combi system, and I will get a spark in to install a light, and from what i know they can self certify

* drainage and waste regs (joining to existing drain, ensure correct fall etc; will be getting plumber to do this part)

* sound insulation in stud wall between ensuite and bathroom (install celotex/kingston/rockwool and double plasterboard on bedroom side?)

Is there anything I have missed? Also can this all be checked in one building inspection and covered by one building notice or do I need to get it inspected at each stage?

Sorry for the barrage of questions but the whole regs thing really hurts my brain!

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Not read in any detail but looks like I'll need some time so will get back tomorrow ;)
 
I have quickly drawn up a plan of the proposed layout (not to scale). I am proposing to add a horizontal run to the existing soilstack for the toilet waste (which will pass under a window; would that be an issue as from what I have read the only restriction if that the vent on the main stack has to be above any open window?)

Personally I would not mount the loo & sink at angles in the corners like that unless they are specifically corner units; takes up much more space, difficult to provide support/fixing & looks a bit odd with conventional units IMO. I would also move the loo so you can go straight out through the wall in line with the stack; no bends to get blocked & no roding access needed on the bends. No problem running the soil pipe under the window but if there is there another loo connected to that stack, you must have a minimum 200mm offset betwen the old & new connection.

No dimensions shown but there are limits to maximum length of unvented pipe runs (Part H); go above & you will need mini AAAV’s or HEPVO traps. You will probably need those on the sink/shower anyway if your going to connect the waste runs into the main soil pipe; separate runs to the stack for each is best but in your case would be a little silly to attempt. For a single w/c it’s 6m to the stack, any more & you will need in internal AAAV on a stub stack in the loo. I would consider the position of the shower; swapping it for the sink may give easier waste runs (which direction are the joists) especially in 50mm which I would suggest for the shower; you can then use 40mm for the sink which is OK unvented up to 3m; 32mm is limited to just 1.7m.

In regards to building regs I am a little unsure what needs to be regulated and when. From what I understand the following regs apply:
* ensuite must provide adequate ventilation (the ensuite is being added to a section of the room with a window, so I presume this would be fine)

Part F. You don’t have to have an opening window but you must have an extractor fan, min 15 litres/sec most of the smaller ones are around 20 litres/sec.
* electrics in the space must meet part P regs (the shower is going to be a mixer added to an existing combi system, and I will get a spark in to install a light, and from what i know they can self certify
As you say, Part P. In theory you can DIY the electrics but must notify LABC in advance when you make the Building Notice submission. In reality many authorities break their own rules & will not inspect, test & issue certification leaving you in the difficult situation where you then have to find a registered spark who will do it retrospectively which they are not allowed to do & actually breaks the terms of their registration.

Make sure the spark is actually registered & gives you a minor works certificate which will detail the work & results of testing; he will also have to wire the fan.

Do you have a modern consumer unit? How old are your electrics?

* drainage and waste regs (joining to existing drain, ensure correct fall etc; will be getting plumber to do this part)

Part H. Again, make sure you get a plumber who actually knows the Regs & knows what they are doing; not always the case.

* sound insulation in stud wall between ensuite and bathroom (install celotex/kingston/rockwool and double plasterboard on bedroom side?)
Interestingly, sound insulation only applies to any stud walls between the w/c room & another habitable room – the bedroom next door, you don’t have to insulate any walls forming the en-suite in the bedroom it serves; so it’s OK for your partner to hear you fart but not the person in the bedroom next door!
If you need sound insulation for the studs, you must use Wallboard 10 as a minimum both sides; ordinary Wallboard does not meet the spec. unless you double up on thickness. Many (including myself) use 15mm Soundblock which is even better. Minimum for the insulation material is 25mm mineral wool, I used cavity insulation bats which my BCO was quiet happy with but check.

Is there anything I have missed? Also can this all be checked in one building inspection and covered by one Building Notice or do I need to get it inspected at each stage?

No ground works are involved because your connecting to any existing stack, BC are unlikely to want a test so will probably just visually inspect at the same time as the waste runs; your probably looking at one stage inspection + completion inspection. LABC fee is linked to works cost but is unlikely to be more than £150; you can download a form & list of charges from the CNC website;
http://www.cncbuildingcontrol.gov.uk/applications.htm

Sorry for the barrage of questions but the whole regs thing really hurts my brain!
Sometimes sticking pins in your eyes would seem a more gratifying experience but they do get easier to understand with experience & you’ve got it all covered. You can always ring your LABC for guidance one you’ve submitted & paid your fee (they don’t really do free consultancy) & there is usually someone on the forum with relative experience. ;)
 
Thanks again Rich, you have provided me with loads of information to go on, I can't believe how naive I was when I first started to think about this project!

Richard C said:
Personally I would not mount the loo & sink at angles in the corners like that unless they are specifically corner units; takes up much more space, difficult to provide support/fixing & looks a bit odd with conventional units IMO

In regards to the toilet and basin, I was planning on using corner units to maximise space, it’s just in the package I was using to draw the diagram they didn't have any corner toilets! I agree with you on the toilet position, it would be easier to mount by the window so the soil pipe can be run horizontally with no bends.

Richard C said:
For a single w/c it’s 6m to the stack, any more & you will need in internal AAAV on a stub stack in the loo. I would consider the position of the shower; swapping it for the sink may give easier waste runs (which direction are the joists) especially in 50mm which I would suggest for the shower; you can then use 40mm for the sink which is OK unvented up to 3m; 32mm is limited to just 1.7m.

I am aiming to create a scale plan with dimensions using some modelling software and will post it shortly. The horizontal soil pipe run will be under 2.8 meters so from what you say that should meet regs. The shower has been placed to best suit the bedroom space, placing it by the window/toilet will make remaining bedroom space not work as well (hopefully this will be clearer when I post some more diagrams). If I was not to use separate waste runs to the mail stack how would I go about connecting them, would they need to be fed into the horizontal w/c pipe?

Richard C said:
Part F. You don’t have to have an opening window but you must have an extractor fan, min 15 litres/sec most of the smaller ones are around 20 litres/sec.

Thanks for that, I just thought an opening window would suffice!

Richard C said:
Do you have a modern consumer unit? How old are your electrics?

Im unsure how old the consumer unit is. The master bedroom (where the ensuite is being added) was built in the 80s, so the wiring is probably over 20 years old.

Richard C said:
Interestingly, sound insulation only applies to any stud walls between the w/c room & another habitable room – the bedroom next door, you don’t have to insulate any walls forming the en-suite in the bedroom it serves

The ensuite will be built ajoining an original external wall on one side (brick/block cavity that was originally the outside of the house). I assume then I don’t have to sound insulate this section of wall (behind which is a bedroom)? I was planning on using soundblock on the outside of the studs (bedroom side) and moister resistant plasterboard on the inside (with aqua panel for the shower enclosure) and then sound insulate the studs.
 

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