Extension works and finding a spark.

[Paul-man]

I'm soon to be getting an electrician in to install the electrics in my extension which is currently being built. Garage conversion downstairs, additional bedroom upstairs. CU in the garage. Approx 20 years old (has 1 RCD)

A few questions I'd appreciate some advice on.

1) Is it likely that I will need to have my CU upgraded to a split load board, given the work I am having done? (I suspect the existing up / down lighting circuits can be extended easily) and I will need possibly a new radial adding to my study for power sockets. I have a spare slot in CU.
View media item 27236
2) I will be having a new boiler and hot water system installed and will probably be moving the location of these to within the new upstairs room. I assume I will need to make provision for these. Will they be another new circuit or will can the existing be utilised? (The new boiler location will be in the room directly above the CU) My plumber hasn't been round yet, so can't ask him what he'll need, but trying to pre-empt and have at least a clue what I'm talking about!

3) Finding an electrician who can self-certify. I have found a facility on the ELECSA site, so will look for locals there. Anywhere else I should check?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

1) Is it likely that I will need to have my CU upgraded to a split load board, given the work I am having done?

At the moment if your RCD trips you lose everything - this is not regarded as a Good Thing when it comes to complying with the Wiring Regulations requirements:

314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to:

(i) avoid hazards and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault
(ii) facilitate safe inspection, testing and maintenance...
(iii) take account of danger that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit
.
.
.

There's no requirement to bring your existing installation up to date, but you'll be asking the electrican to put in/extend a lighting circuit, so don't be surprised if it's a bit of an uphill struggle with him to not have either:

a) Your CU replaced.
b) A separate CU for the extension installed.
c) Your RCD replaced by a switch and all the MCBs replaced by RCBOs. (If they are obtainable).

(c) is the best approach, but the most expensive.
(b) would probably be the cheapest, and since a large mostly empty box doesn't cost much more than a small one, if you have the space then have a full-size CU put in, as you can then have circuits moved across at a later date, if you want.

2) I will be having a new boiler and hot water system installed and will probably be moving the location of these to within the new upstairs room. I assume I will need to make provision for these. Will they be another new circuit or will can the existing be utilised? (The new boiler location will be in the room directly above the CU) My plumber hasn't been round yet, so can't ask him what he'll need, but trying to pre-empt and have at least a clue what I'm talking about!

Ignore it.

Whatever the electrical provision turns out to be the cost will pale into insignificance when compared to a new boiler and moving all the plumbing and gas.

3) Finding an electrician who can self-certify. I have found a facility on the ELECSA site, so will look for locals there. Anywhere else I should check?

As ever, personal recommendations are always the best way to find a reputable tradesman, but if you're having to go ahead without much in the way of those, or references, don't put any store by registration itself - sadly it is possible to become registered with woefully inadequate qualifications and zero practical experience. You don't have to spend long here to see people cropping up who are registered and "qualified", but who are clearly seriously incompetent in reality and who should not be charging for their services.

You are looking for someone to wire an extension, and it may surprise and dismay you to learn that it is quite possible to become a "certified electrician" without ever having done that before, and without having acquired any of the practical skills needed to do it without half-destroying your house in the process, or to have become fast enough not to delay the other trades.

It's your money, £'00s of it, and you have every right to ask prospective tradesmen what their qualifications and experience are. Just being listed here is not a good enough guide. No genuinely experienced electrician, with the "full set" of C&G qualifications will mind you asking - in fact he will wish that everyone was like you.

I feel sorry for people who have been misled by training organisations and (shamefully) the Competent Person scheme organisers into thinking that a 5-day training course, a couple of trivial examples of their work and some basic understanding of how to use test equipment will make them an electrician, but not sorry enough to agree with them trying to sell their services to Joe Public.

 

[Paul-man]

Thanks for the comprehensive reply BAS. Regarding the CU, I don't have a huge amount of wall space at my disposal, in fact I was hoping to get the CU moved so that I could put a wall unit right where it is at the moment!

I might go down the RCBO route (or ask my spark to anyhow). There is a chance that in 3-4 years we may do another extension which would be more involved. (several extra rooms) So with this in mind perhaps a whole new CU now would be a better option giving me room to expand in the future.

Regarding the RCD inconvenience - I have already experienced that today when the builder decided to plus a wet extension lead into one of my sockets. After tripping it for the third time, I went and offered him my extension reel which had a built in RCD and was also dry!

I understand what you are saying about competent person scheme etc. The one local recommendation I have been given I believe is "not registered" so I am guessing I will then need to pay building control more money to come and check it.

Thanks again.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Just because the electrician is not registered with one of the scheme providers does not mean the electrician is no good, they may be the best electrician in the world but not registered.
If you are having an extension done, this will come under a building controls application, on the application, notification of the electrical work can be made.
This will mean that a non registered electrician can be used.

Paul in answer to your questions:

1)
I would go for either a dual RCD split board or a split board that has an RCD facility and also allows for RCBOs.
If the up/down lighting circuit are two different circuits, chances are they will extend easy enough, if they are not it would be a consideration to ask your electrician to split them.
2)
Is the new boiler providing sole supply for hot water and central heating or do you have a stored system as well?
It would be wise to have the boiler on it's own circuit, the reason why I say this is most new boilers will have a frost setting. In winter or extreme cold periods, if you are away on holiday and the house empty. If a circuit trips the RCD the boiler is on it, you could come home to a very wet house, due to burst pipes.
If the boiler circuit can not be on a circuit of it's own, consider putting it on a circuit that is protected by a RCBO.
You will find the plumber will be happy with a fused spur to power the boiler.
3)
You can look at all the scheme providers sites, type in your post code and they will come up with a number of electricians in your area.
Or use the link provide by BAS. But as BAS states being registered alone does not make one a good electrician but also as I started my post, not being registered does not make you a bad one either.
The key is word of mouth, testimonies and references.
If you are, as mentioned, having further work done on the property get a bigger CU and make provisions, so your not knocking your house in bits again, nothing wrong with having some spares on it.
Good luck with your project

 

[Paul-man]

Just because the electrician is not registered with one of the scheme providers does not mean the electrician is no good, they may be the best electrician in the world but not registered.
If you are having an extension done, this will come under a building controls application, on the application, notification of the electrical work can be made.
This will mean that a non registered electrician can be used.

There is a building regs application which mentions the electrical work. Unfortunately, my council still charges additional on top of this. Also, my architect has specified that the installation is to be undertaken by a person/firm whos is a competent person registered with an electrical self-certification scheme blah blah blah!

If the up/down lighting circuit are two different circuits, chances are they will extend easy enough, if they are not it would be a consideration to ask your electrician to split them.

Yes, they are different circuits.
I've searched to see if RCBOs are available for my CU.
Found the topic below.

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=273851

All wiring will be going behind dry-lining. Am I right that the wiring will need to be mechanically protected if it is not going to be RCD protected? If so, would this avoid the need to put RCBOs to lighting circuits?

2)
Is the new boiler providing sole supply for hot water and central heating or do you have a stored system as well?

In theory yes, it is for hot water and central heating only. We are looking in to having a pressurised hot water system / Megaflo. I'm not sure if these also have an immersion heater. I don't think a new dedicated circuit for this would be too much work. It could go in place of the existing immersion circuit, though this is not on the RCD side. Can the RCD module be moved on these CUs if required?

Having checked the board again, I have about 3 standard sized slots on the RCD protected side.

3)
You can look at all the scheme providers sites, type in your post code and they will come up with a number of electricians in your area.
Or use the link provide by BAS. But as BAS states being registered alone does not make one a good electrician but also as I started my post, not being registered does not make you a bad one either.
...

Good luck with your project

Thanks

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Unfortunately, my council still charges additional on top of this. Also, my architect has specified that the installation is to be undertaken by a person/firm whos is a competent person registered with an electrical self-certification scheme blah blah blah!

If that is the case get your ear to the ground and ask for proof of work, testimonies, references etc...

Yes, they are different circuits.
I've searched to see if RCBOs are available for my CU.
Found the topic below.

//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=273851[/QUOTE]
They are not the cheapest RCBOs in the world, I recall contacting Eaton regarding their RCBOs and the MEM boards, they redirected my email and I never heard anything sinces, that was over a month ago.

All wiring will be going behind dry-lining. Am I right that the wiring will need to be mechanically protected if it is not going to be RCD protected? If so, would this avoid the need to put RCBOs to lighting circuits?

not necessarily, read this link
//www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:installation_techniques:walls.

In theory yes, it is for hot water and central heating only. We are looking in to having a pressurised hot water system / Megaflo. I'm not sure if these also have an immersion heater. I don't think a new dedicated circuit for this would be too much work. It could go in place of the existing immersion circuit, though this is not on the RCD side. Can the RCD module be moved on these CUs if required?

the megaflow does have an immersion heater and requires a minimum of 13A.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

not necessarily, read this link
http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i62/RFLighting/text.jpg[/QUOTE]
Out of date - the parts about cable zones are still valid, but the 17th Edition of the Wiring Regulations removes some of the alternative cable types and introduces RCD protection, the requirement for which is not dependent on any zones the cables run in, only their depth.

IEE Article on 17th Edition requirements for concealed cables.

Or //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:walls

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Out of date - the parts about cable zones are still valid, but the 17th Edition of the Wiring Regulations removes some of the alternative cable types and introduces RCD protection, the requirement for which is not dependent on any zones the cables run in, only their depth.

IEE Article on 17th Edition requirements for concealed cables.

Or //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:walls[/QUOTE]
I don't know why that link came up, I thought I had posted this link //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:installation_techniques:walls.
photobucket how did that happen?
apologies to the op.
I will edit to avoid misleading info.

 

[Paul-man]

Thanks gents.

Will speak to some colleagues at work about who they've used for their electrics. Think it is definitely time to get that old MEM upgraded. Especially as it needs moving anyway.
Should I research what I want, or allow the electrician to choose?

 

[Paul-man]

Do electricians expect to be given a job that they quote for?

I shopped around for my builder- prices were very similar but it allowed me to have a chat with them all and assess who I'd rather have in my house / get on with. A while back on the plumbing forum, I was told that if I did the same to a plumber, they'd be annoyed as they wouldn't expect a customer to shop around!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Should I research what I want, or allow the electrician to choose?

Allow him to choose the make, but you give him a steer on how many sections you want, how much use of RCBOs, how much spare space you want to end up with etc.

If physical space is tight, consider whether 2 small CUs one above the other would work better.

Budget creep is of course a danger in any building project, but in relation to your overall spend the difference between a good CU and a flimsy pile of tat isn't much, so tell him not to go for the cheapest, and that you'd prefer a good make such as Hager, MEM, Merlin-Gerin. Siemens used to be good - don't know about these days. My thinking is that you'll be able to get parts for ones like those in years to come, which might not be the case for some others.

Do electricians expect to be given a job that they quote for?

I shopped around for my builder- prices were very similar but it allowed me to have a chat with them all and assess who I'd rather have in my house / get on with.

As long as you don't take the **** and have them spend a lot of time giving you ideas. Come up with a reasonable spec and stick to it, do your assessment, and then if any of them have said things or given you ideas which cause you to change your spec do that with the guy you eventually choose.

A while back on the plumbing forum, I was told that if I did the same to a plumber, they'd be annoyed as they wouldn't expect a customer to shop around!

Yeah, but plumbers are born miserable g**s.

 

[sparkwright]

Should I research what I want, or allow the electrician to choose?

Allow him to choose the make, but you give him a steer on how many sections you want, how much use of RCBOs, how much spare space you want to end up with etc.

If physical space is tight, consider whether 2 small CUs one above the other would work better.

Budget creep is of course a danger in any building project, but in relation to your overall spend the difference between a good CU and a flimsy pile of tat isn't much, so tell him not to go for the cheapest, and that you'd prefer a good make such as Hager, MEM, Merlin-Gerin. Siemens used to be good - don't know about these days. My thinking is that you'll be able to get parts for ones like those in years to come, which might not be the case for some others.

Do electricians expect to be given a job that they quote for?

I shopped around for my builder- prices were very similar but it allowed me to have a chat with them all and assess who I'd rather have in my house / get on with.

As long as you don't take the **** and have them spend a lot of time giving you ideas. Come up with a reasonable spec and stick to it, do your assessment, and then if any of them have said things or given you ideas which cause you to change your spec do that with the guy you eventually choose.

A while back on the plumbing forum, I was told that if I did the same to a plumber, they'd be annoyed as they wouldn't expect a customer to shop around!

Yeah, but plumbers are born miserable g**s.

gits ?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I couldn't possibly comment.

 

[Paul-man]

I now have a couple of potential electricians found via good reviews on which.co.uk.

Below is my proposed spec. Please could you see if I've missed anything or if I should rewrite differently?

I will be taking care of data, Telecoms and TV myself- but haven't forgotten it!


Existing CU
Water Heater Sockets A Sockets B RCD Module Cooker Lights Up Lights Down Switch



Proposed CU
Water Heater Sockets A (Ring) Sockets B(Ring) Sockets C(Radial)
Spare RCD
Cooker Lights Up Lights Down Spare RCD
Smokes Switchl

CU
Replace CU - Move location to sit within corner cupboard
Lights
1 flourescent tube and switch in new loft (supply)
1 energy saving light pendant adding to "lights up" for new front bedroom (supply)
1 energy saving pendant and switch for back bedroom (move)
1 HF flouresecent fitting supplied and switch to Study (supply)
1 standard pendant to utility room.(move)
Sockets
3 doubles to be added to Sockets A for Utility Room
4 doubles to be added to Sockets A for Back Bedroom
4 doubles to be added to Sockets A for Front Bedroom
6 doubles added to new radial circuit "Sockets C" for Study
Misc
Provision of hardwired interlinked smoke detectors as required
Move burglar alarm onto smokes circuit
Move outdoor light onto an appropriate circuit
Provide 2 additional outdoor lamp, interlinked to same PIR.
?? Possible moving of Water Heater Circuit to landing


All accessories to be MK Logic, white, 35mm backboxes to sockets.