Fault in SWA cable

I don't know what I was expecting really.
Probably more of a gamble.
I would have thought starting in the middle and halving would be the same every time.

However, other than starting very close to one end it would seem not to make too much difference.

Strange about the no '5's. Will study the numbers.

in addition to varying the location of the first cut, one can also vary how one 'divides' the segments - i.e. one doesn't necessarily have to do 'halving' - one could, for example, do 'thirding'! I'm not sure I'm interested enough to go exploring all the possibilities that throws up!

I think that was more what I had in mind - say starting at a quarter distance and quartering all the time.
Presumably that would work out the same, though, as the fault is more likely (3 to 1) to be in the long part.

Thanks again.
 
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I don't know what I was expecting really. Probably more of a gamble. I would have thought starting in the middle and halving would be the same every time.
You mean you would have expected to always take the same number of cuts? In fact, it almost does in my simulation - it's either 5 or 6 cuts if you start at the middle. I think the reason for that may be because my 'target length' (4m or less) is finite - so, depending upon exactly where the fault is, there's probably a certain amount of chance as to whether or not one 'catches' it with the 5th cut. I suspect that as one's target length was reduced (from 4m), the closer one would get to the answer being the same number of cuts every time. I could look into that.

Strange about the no '5's. Will study the numbers.
I think I've probably worked that one out. The 'missing 5s' only happened when one's first cut was 10% from an end. If one was 'lucky' and the fault was within that first 10%, then it could not possibly take as many as 5 cuts to narrow it down to a <4m segment. On the other hand, if one was less lucky, and the fault was in the other 90%, then it could not possibly take as few as 5 cuts (6 is the minimum) to get down to a <4m segment - hence, whether one is lucky or unlucky when starting at 10%, one can never get the answer with 5 cuts - it has to be more than 5 or less than 5 (depending upon whether one's initial cut was 'lucky'). That sounds convincing (at least, to me!), so it reassures me that the simulation was probably telling the truth about that.

in addition to varying the location of the first cut, one can also vary how one 'divides' the segments - i.e. one doesn't necessarily have to do 'halving' - one could, for example, do 'thirding'! I'm not sure I'm interested enough to go exploring all the possibilities that throws up!
I think that was more what I had in mind - say starting at a quarter distance and quartering all the time.
That one would be easy enough to simulate. If I find myself with the requisite number of spare moments, I'll try that tomorrow.

Presumably that would work out the same, though, as the fault is more likely (3 to 1) to be in the long part.
I wouldn't be quite so sure - as I said, it gets complicated. We'll see! In mathematical terms, I think the main complication is probably that, by virtue of the successive multiplication (or division, if you prefer) inherent in successive 'halving', 'quartering', or whatever, there is probably not going to be a linear relationship between the 'step sizes' (which are a major determinant of number of cuts needed) and 'probability of fault being present' on the two sides of a cut. However, I need to think a bit more deeply/clearly about that one ('in the clear light of day'), too!

Kind FRegards, John.
 
The more I think about it, without numerous calculations as you have done, the more I have realised that I was hoping to be lucky with the first cut in order to reduce the number of cuts and waste of cable.

Having said that I still believe that starting in the middle and halving is not the wisest plan as you will never gain an advantage due to luck.
The odds are evens that you could guess which side of the centre cut the fault may be but even if correct there is no advantage.

As an example, take a Ring with sixteen sockets - one of which has a break in a conductor.

Dividing the circuit in the centre and halving each time will result in having to make four divisions every time before finding the faulty socket.

Whereas quartering, If you happen to choose the correct side still results in having to make three divisions.
If you chose the wrong side and start halving it could be as many as five.
Should you continue to quarter it could take seven - worst case scenario.

It would seem that it is a gamble.
It may be worth taking a guess on the first cut hoping to be lucky but if not halving appears the best policy after all.
 
The more I think about it, without numerous calculations as you have done, the more I have realised that I was hoping to be lucky with the first cut in order to reduce the number of cuts and waste of cable.
Exactly - as I said at the start, it involves the concept of 'utility' - i.e. whether you are 'risk-averse', 'risk-neutral' or 'risk-loving'.

As you say, the non-central first cut involves gambling that you will be lucky with that first cut, in which case you will obviously 'win'. However, you are obviously more likely to be unlucky than lucky - so,as we've seen, that means that 'on average' there will be no gain and, probably a small 'loss'. The person who takes that approach is therefore towards the 'risk-loving' end of the utility spectrum.

It's exactly the same with traditional gambling. Most people actually understand that if one takes part in purely random gambling (roulette, lotteries etc.), 'on average' (i.e. 'in the long term'), one cannot win. However, the 'risk-loving' person will concentrate on the fact that they could win a fortune with one of their earliest roulette stakes or lottery tickets.

Having said that I still believe that starting in the middle and halving is not the wisest plan as you will never gain an advantage due to luck. The odds are evens that you could guess which side of the centre cut the fault may be but even if correct there is no advantage.
Again, a 'risk-loving' view. Yes, you will sometimes gain an advantage by not starting in the middle - but, more commonly, you will 'gain' a disadvantage and, as I have illustrated, those disadvantages slightly outweigh the advantages so that, on balance, they are somewhat worse off. 'Risk-loving' (as in compulsive gamblers) is largely about psychology - the 'buzz' that a person gets by occasional wins, even if they are more than cancelled by other losses.

As an example, take a Ring with sixteen sockets - one of which has a break in a conductor. Dividing the circuit in the centre and halving each time will result in having to make four divisions every time before finding the faulty socket. Whereas quartering, If you happen to choose the correct side still results in having to make three divisions. If you chose the wrong side and start halving it could be as many as five. Should you continue to quarter it could take seven - worst case scenario. It would seem that it is a gamble.
Indeed - and, coincidentally, very similar to the figures from my 100m cable simulation. However, everything I've said above still applies.

Obviously, what 'on average' means in this context is this ... Assuming locations of faults are totally at random (i.e.absolutely no other information), take two electricians and get them both to undertake one of these exercises every day for a few years - one using 'halving' and the other using 'quartering'. The 'quartering' one would feel chuffed, because (s)he will have sometimes located the fault with only 3 divisions, something that the 'halving' one will never have done. However,when they totted up, they ought to find (assuming the installations they'd been testing were, on average, 'comparable') that, over the years, the 'quartering' one had undertaken more divisions/cuts than the 'halving one'. So, it's a toss-up between the occasional 'short term' win (and feeling of satisfaction.'buzz') and a long-term (probably fairly small loss).

It may be worth taking a guess on the first cut hoping to be lucky but if not halving appears the best policy after all.
If it's a pure (random) guess, then, even if it 'feels good', there is not going to be a (long-term' or 'on average') benefit. However, if there is any 'information' one can feed into the exercise (e.g. practicalities as to where the neighbour could have got at a cable to damage it), selecting one's first cut/division on the basis of such additional information can obviously be very worthwhile.

Kind Regards, John.
 
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Ive been idly following this. I don't get it though. Was the final aim to find the screw in the shortest possible time, as a kind of intellectual exercise? Or was it to sort out the problem of a faulty cable? So there's a digger on site...

Was the solution really to join 6 or so pieces of cable underground, rather than just dig it up and replace (preferably with a duct to save this situation happening again)?
 
Ive been idly following this. I don't get it though. Was the final aim to find the screw in the shortest possible time, as a kind of intellectual exercise?
Yes, as these things do, it eventually slid off into an 'intellectual exercise', but not one without it's practical value....

Or was it to sort out the problem of a faulty cable? So there's a digger on site... Was the solution really to join 6 or so pieces of cable underground, rather than just dig it up and replace (preferably with a duct to save this situation happening again)?
I'm not sure what the OP's intention was. Multiple undergrounds joints is clearly not very nice (or cheap), but I don't think we were ever told the CSA of his 100m of SWA. If it were 25mm² (far from impossible with that length of run), or even 16mm², the cost of replacing it all would be far from trivial (little/no change from £1000 if it were 3-core 25mm).

So, the 'intellectual exercise' might be relevant even for that sort of situation but, even if you don't consider that it is, the application of the same process to faultfinding in, say a ring final circuit is an everyday event. Most people probably work on the basis of 'halving', and EFLI was effectively challenging that as the best approach - so I personally think it was worth looking into.

Kind Regards, John.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_chop
Yep, as you imply, it's what is known as a binary search, almost as beloved of examiners as the 'random walk' :) Whilst, in terms of computing, it's not necessarily the most efficient search algorithm (particularly because of its requirement for sorting - or, at least, variants using some sort of indexing), there really aren't (to the best of my knowledge) any better approaches available to the electrician with a faulty length of cable or ring final circuit to fault-find.

Kind Regards, John.
 

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