Fire-rated downlights in extension? Electrician right?

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I know this topic comes up repeatedly but I am surprised that the two electricians working on our house seem convinced that we need fire-rated downlights.

A single-storey extension has been built to the rear of our semi-detached house and attached to our living room and kitchen. We want downlights in the old living room area, old kitchen area, new extension, and parts of the rest of the ground floor.

Our bedrooms are on the first floor, partly over the living room area. There is no insulation in the cavity between the ground floor ceiling and first floor where there is plasterboard fitted in the old part of the house. In other parts of the house the ceiling is lath and plaster. The pitched roof above the extension will have insulation when the plasterboard has been applied.

Since there is no separate dwelling other than next door, and none of the surfaces to be cut through for lights is provided as a fire barrier, my understanding is that we do not need fire-rated downlights or hoods.

I have read the article http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/2005.cfm "Installing recessed luminaires in ceilings", but is there something more up to date I can show to my electrician?

There are certainly plenty of people who will tell you the advantages but it seems entirely unnecessary to use fire-rated or hoods when they are not needed.

Obviously space will be needed around fittings in the extension where there is insulation.

Thanks.
 
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422.3.1 Except for equipment for which an appropriate product standard specifies requirements, a luminaire shall
be kept at an adequate distance from Combustible materials. Unless otherwise recommended by the manufacturer, a
small spotlight or projector shall be installed at the following minimum distance from combustible materials:
(i) Rating up to 100 W 0.5 m
(ii) Over 100 and up to 300 W 0.8 m
(iii) Over 300 and up to 500 W 1.0 m
NOTE: A luminaire with a lamp that could eject flammable materials in case of failure should be constructed with a safety
protective shield for the lamp in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.
422.4.2 Except for equipment for which an appropriate product standard Specifics requirements, a luminaire shall
be kept at an adequate distance from combustible materials. Unless otherwise recommended by the manufacturer, a
small spotlight or projector shall be installed at the following minimum distance from combustible materials:
(i) Rating up to 100 W 0.5 m
(ii) Over 100 and up to 300 W 0.8 m
(iii) Over 300 and up to 500 W 1.0 m
NOTE 1: A luminaire with a lamp that could eject Flammable materials in case of failure should be constructed with a Safety
protective shield for the lamp in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions.
NOTE 2: Luminaires marked accordance with BS EN 60598-1 are suitable for mounting on a normally flammable surface.

As you can see they thought it that important it have been repeated. In the main there is not 0.5 meters between ceiling and floor so only light fittings where the manufacturer says they can be fitted in that space can be used. The section is taken from BS7671:2008.
 
is there something more up to date I can show to my electrician?
Rather than trying to show something to your electrician to prove he is wrong you could always ask him to show you something which proves he is right to demand that you pay for lights with that specification.

Or you could consider whether the difference in price is worth causing conflict. I know that you've been irrational in the first place by wanting all those downlights, but even so....


Obviously space will be needed around fittings in the extension where there is insulation.
Not just space. Simply removing the insulation will cause Part L problems, as well as, over time, leading to dirty marks on the ceiling.

You need to put an enclosure (build or buy) over the lights to allow insulation to be reinstated. It needs to be big enough to provide the clearance the maker specifies. If above the ceiling is a cold space then you'll need to seal the enclosure to the ceiling to stop warm moist air getting in there or you risk condensation, and that leads to rot. It's of particular concern above kitchens and bathrooms.Basically if you do not have access from above it becomes very difficult to install recessed lights where you need to seal them off.
 
422.3.1 Except for equipment for which an appropriate product standard specifies requirements, a luminaire shall
be kept at an adequate distance from Combustible materials. Unless otherwise recommended by the manufacturer, a
small spotlight or projector shall be installed at the following minimum distance from combustible materials:
(i) Rating up to 100 W 0.5 m
(

Thanks for the quick response and the quote.

So if I were to select a downlight such as

http://www.astrolighting.co.uk/Taro_5604 which has instructions at

http://www.astrolighting.co.uk/file...5604,5605 Taro Class 1 Instructions Iss.5.pdf

These instructions seem to me to indicate that the manufacturer says the minimum distance to materials above is 15cm. This is far short of the fallback figure of 50cm in the regulations.

Or if I were to select this:

http://www.saxbylighting.com/index.php?pg=details&prod=148

which has instructions here

http://www.saxbylighting.com/instructions/25627.pdf

I see "110mm ceiling void (minimum)".

Again far short of the 50cm figure.

So would you agree that these manufacturer's figures can be used, or am I misinterpreting the regulations or these instructions?
 
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The 50cm figure is the distance from the front of the lamp to a surface or object, not clearances around the rear...
 
and none of the surfaces to be cut through for lights is provided as a fire barrier.......

I would argue that plasterboard and lathe & plaster was a fire barrier. I would also argue, and this is might be what the electricians have in mind, that it's good working practice to leave a building with similar or better fire resistance after the job as before. And that would mean not leaving the ground floor peppered with holes that would significantly lower the fire resistance of it.

Regardless of the regs, straight forward common sense would tell you to maintain the effectiveness of the ground floor ceiling as a fire barrier.

If the modification to the building was significant enough, what did your fire risk assessment come up with?
 
And that would mean not leaving the ground floor peppered with holes that would significantly lower the fire resistance of it.
But they don't. Tests have shown that they do not significantly lower the fire resistance of 30 minute ceilings.


Regardless of the regs, straight forward common sense would tell you to maintain the effectiveness of the ground floor ceiling as a fire barrier.
It's "common sense" rather than scientific method which leads to electricians insisting that fire-rated lights are needed when they are not.
 
Rather than trying to show something to your electrician to prove he is wrong you could always ask him to show you something which proves he is right to demand that you pay for lights with that specification.

Fair point.

Or you could consider whether the difference in price is worth causing conflict.

I obviously want to avoid disagreement and will need to give way to the electrician ultimately, just that I see a better selection of tilt downlights (my preference) which are not fire-rated, and I don't tend to see any point in buying something unless required to do so.

The article I originally referenced in IEE Matters from 2005 cited research which showed that adding downlights did not make difference to the 30 minute performance of a plaster ceiling.

Obviously space will be needed around fittings in the extension where there is insulation.

Not just space. Simply removing the insulation will cause Part L problems, as well as, over time, leading to dirty marks on the ceiling.

Oddly enough the second electrician in the team has said to me that fire-rated downlights would NOT be required in the new build (single storey extension) where there is insulation, but WILL be required in the old part of the house, where we have a mixture of plasterboard with a cavity above and no insulation, or lath and plaster with a cavity and no insulation.

That seems contrary to your part L observations.
 
The 50cm figure is the distance from the front of the lamp to a surface or object, not clearances around the rear...

In that case there is nothing which requires fire-rated downlights in our installation except in the new single storey extension where our downlights are likely to be in contact with insulation due to part L.

However I don't see where that quote makes clear that we are talking about clearances in front of the lamp.
 
Try this.

Best Practice Guide No.5. Page 9.

http://www.esc.org.uk/industry/industry-guidance/best-practice-guides/

It has a handy table that states what where you do and don't need fire rated down lights. There are a few notes to the table to check the structure and flooring make up against, but your builder should be able to confirm whether these requirements are met or not.

As I see it, if you live in a two story house and the floors / ceilings meet the requirements in the notes to the table, you don't need fire rated, although I still tend to fit to save discussions like this with people! But it's also about giving the customer what they want as long as it's safe and not breaching any regs. I stand to be corrected.
 
Oddly enough the second electrician in the team has said to me that fire-rated downlights would NOT be required in the new build (single storey extension) where there is insulation, but WILL be required in the old part of the house, where we have a mixture of plasterboard with a cavity above and no insulation, or lath and plaster with a cavity and no insulation.

That seems contrary to your part L observations.
How so?

Fire rated lights (or not) and Part L are unrelated.
 
As I see it, if you live in a two story house and the floors / ceilings meet the requirements in the notes to the table, you don't need fire rated.
I always think it instructive, in the case of 2-storey houses, to invite the person to stand near the foot of their stairs and look up at the *(£$%^!#@' great hole in the ground floor ceiling....
 
As I see it, if you live in a two story house and the floors / ceilings meet the requirements in the notes to the table, you don't need fire rated.
I always think it instructive, in the case of 2-storey houses, to invite the person to stand near the foot of their stairs and look up at the *(£$%^!#@' great hole in the ground floor ceiling....

...if you can see it past the glare of the down lights...
 
The "thinking" ? behind it is that escape from a first floor window is relatively easy and safe compared to an escape from a second floor window. So in a two storey house open plan stairs are acceptable but with a three storey house open plan stairs present a risk of forcing people to escape from the second floor windows.
 
Oddly enough the second electrician in the team has said to me that fire-rated downlights would NOT be required in the new build (single storey extension) where there is insulation, but WILL be required in the old part of the house, where we have a mixture of plasterboard with a cavity above and no insulation, or lath and plaster with a cavity and no insulation.

That seems contrary to your part L observations.
How so?

Fire rated lights (or not) and Part L are unrelated.

Sorry, I was under the misconception that fire-rated downlights do not need clearance in the insulation material, though having looked at some manufacturer instructions I can see that was incorrect.
 

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