Flat Roof - Repair or Renew?

[legs-akimbo]

Your roof is completely banjaxed.
What a massive amount of work changeing it to a pitch. If it is stripped and redone in three quarter ply on fairing strips to give a good fall and stop any pooling.... bitumen primer... perforated felt sheet... three underlay and final talc finish top sheet and green mineral drips with chips or solar paint finish it will last twenty five years by which time most of us will be dead and it wont matter then cus it will be someone elses problem.

 

[phykell]

Your roof is completely banjaxed.

Never heard that word before!

Anyway, I've decided to go for the pitched roof. I was given a guess over the phone on one of these fibre-glass systems as a replacement roof and it was £1,400. I then got another quote for a pitched roof which will join up with the garage one, making one continuous roof. Amazingly, and as predicted by masona:

I think you will get away with it.

...it seems I will just get away with it. The centre of the roof will lie just under the window and there will be a hip at the end. I had asked about having the roof open (ceiling lying against the pitch rather than suspended) but the roofer said that it would cost a great deal more, be more expensive to heat (it's three external walls as well) and it will only function as a kitchen anyway - dining area is elsewhere. As a compromise he suggested a fluted section into the ceiling with a large Velux window. The quote was £2,350 and an extra £450 for the fluted ceiling with Velux. Also, when the guy was measuring up, he noticed I had a broken tile on the garage part. He asked if I had any spares and replaced it there and then, and then refused any payment for it. The roof is really holding up our progress with the kitchen so he's agreed to start this week!

So, thanks to all who contributed to this thread! I'll post a picture of the finished result

I'm just wondering what the score is about the planning permission now...

 

[masona]

Your roof is completely banjaxed.

Never heard that word before!

Nor have I

I'm just wondering what the score is about the planning permission now...

Very straight forward pop down to your building control department with a rough drawing and they will advise what you need to do, just building regulation but planning permission if the pitch roof is going to be higher than 4 metres.

Sounds like you've got a good builder there

 

[phykell]

Just a quick thanks to everyone, especially masona As a result of the advice received I ended up with this roof:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phykell/diy/KitchenRoofSide.jpg

Looks fantastic and has really added to the house. Before it just looked like a tacked on extension but now looks "part" of the house itself. The Velux you can see was an additional cost but well worth it, allowing much more light into the kitchen than before. Guys who did the work turned up at 08:15 every morning on the dot, worked until after 6pm and were great. Very happy with them and the roof! Now I just have to find someone to do the external rendering

 

[masona]

That's great and no more flat roof leaking.

 

[tim00]

phykell,
Q1 Did the roofer remove the old roof and kitchen ceiling plaster-board?
Q2 " " re-new the old celing joists?
Q3 " " frame the new cut roof?
Q4 " " install a new ceiling and insulation?
Q5 What fascia and rainwater arrangements have been fitted?
Q6 Was a cavity liner and stepped flashing installed?
Q7 Was all debris removed from site?
Q8 Is there an access trap to the new roof space?

If all the above are included in the price you quote then you have had an excellent job done.
As a matter of interest you should use plumb angle grinder cuts at the render edges, it will give you a neater less noticeable join.
My two cents worth!

 

[phykell]

Q1 Did the roofer remove the old roof and kitchen ceiling plaster-board?
No, only what he had to. We're having a conventional ceiling with Kingspan fitted between the joists. The old boards can only act as extra insulation can't they?

Q2 " " re-new the old celing joists?
No, they were all fine. They are very sustantial and the wood is rock hard - even driving nails and screws into it is difficult!

Q3 " " frame the new cut roof?
I don't know exactly what you mean but there were two frames around the perimeter of the building in order to provide enough width for the new joists to sit on (due to the angle of pitch).

Q4 " " install a new ceiling and insulation?
No, I've supplied and fitted foil-backed Kingspan stuff and I'll be doing the ceiling.

Q5 What fascia and rainwater arrangements have been fitted?
The fascia is standard fascia boards and the drains are plastic with a single downpipe to one corner with a drain cut into the ground.

Q6 Was a cavity liner and stepped flashing installed?
No cavity - it's a solid wall. I haven't looked at the flashing.

Q7 Was all debris removed from site?
No, though he did arrange a skip for me and they did clean up after themselves each evening.

Q8 Is there an access trap to the new roof space?
No, there's very little space in there due to the Velux and the pitch of the roof again.

I'm not saying I got the best price by the way, in fact I think it was rather expensive, but I got the job I needed doing urgently and they actually turned up and completed it. Fact is, I've been trying to get someone to quote for it for a while. The only other two who came, one didn't get back to me, and the other said it couldn't be done because of the bathroom window, despite the fact he didn't even get up there and measure up! The guy that did the job just got up there and told me it would be no problem. As a comparison, the guy who recommended this one had his kitchen done for £1,100 though it wasn't double hipped, wasn't as low a pitch and was perhaps half the size of my kitchen. As for the join being noticeable, the angle grinder method sounds a good idea. Actually though, I was just pleasantly surprised that the mortar used for the ridge tiles matches the tiles so well. The garage roof I had done by some other guy looks terrible compared with this one - having used ordinary mortar to form the joints.

What would you say was a fair price just out of interest?

Anyway, Friends Provident just made me a reasonable offer on an old endowment they'd sold me years ago (after much argument). I thought I'd seen the back of that money so right now, nothing can ruin that!

 

[tim00]

phykell, thank you for the response:
1. If the old roof was badly damaged it could contain water damage.
2. With no roof space access, wiring might be problematic.
3. Ventilation might be an issue.
4. Do the tiles match the main roof tiles?I assume that you selected them.
5. I'd suggest that the "sympathetic" mortar might merely be coloured to match with dye. It's still compo.
6. How is the Velux operated?
7. You say that the rear elevation of your house is solid walled! Well, if it isn't and you had no previous problems of damp around the break-thro lintel then you should be fine now. The problem is: is that now you have shifted the "flashing line" a little higher and in cavity walling its necessary to install a cavity tray above the "flashing line".
As for a fair price it depends where you are: here in Manchester i would say £2000 for what you have had done.
Hope this helps, which is my purpose.

 

[phykell]

1. If the old roof was badly damaged it could contain water damage.
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Agreed. The sections that were leaking have been completely removed.

2. With no roof space access, wiring might be problematic.
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The existing joists are very deep. Even with the Kingspan fitted up against the original roofing boards, there's still plenty of room to fit the wiring above the ceiling yet under the Kingspan. I'm rewiring the entire kitchen anyway

3. Ventilation might be an issue.
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I don't know about that. I assume the guy has done what he needs to to avoid this problem. Certainly hope so anyway!

4. Do the tiles match the main roof tiles?I assume that you selected them.
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The house roof is original slates so no, but the chosen tiles do match the garage that is attached to the side of the house and to the kitchen. In fact, the new roof now integrates into the garage roof - liniing up perfectly. He had to do some extra work here including replacing some of the garage's ridge tiles to allow the kitchen roof to be adjoined to the garage one.

5. I'd suggest that the "sympathetic" mortar might merely be coloured to match with dye. It's still compo.
=====
What does "compo" mean? Whatever method he used, it looks much better than the garage! I might get him back to sort that out now you come to mention it.

6. How is the Velux operated?
=====
I'll buy the proper bar or make something (have you SEEN the price of the Velux bars?).

7. You say that the rear elevation of your house is solid walled! Well, if it isn't and you had no previous problems of damp around the break-thro lintel then you should be fine now. The problem is: is that now you have shifted the "flashing line" a little higher and in cavity walling its necessary to install a cavity tray above the "flashing line".
There's no cavity walls anywhere in my house. Hopefully I won't suffer any damp problems though.

As for a fair price it depends where you are: here in Manchester i would say £2000 for what you have had done. Hope this helps, which is my purpose.

I'm not listening! Seriously though, I thought it was a bit expensive, but the fact is that we desperately needed it doing, it turned out really well and I possibly under-estimated the amount of work that he actually did. Having said that, having had a previous roofer do the job on my garage for £1,800 some years ago, I'm happy enough with what I got as the guys turned up every day as promised, were completely trustworthy, very nice people and worked until the job was completed without wandering off on other jobs, etc. Expensive yes, but worth the extra in my opinion (I'll keep telling myself that )

 

[masona]

3. Ventilation might be an issue.
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I don't know about that. I assume the guy has done what he needs to to avoid this problem.

If you haven't got ventilation and looking at the picture if I'm seeing it correctly, you could put in a 9"x3" air brick vent in between the ceiling joists at the top line (2 on each side should be enough) Having said that I don't know your layout of the roof.

6. How is the Velux operated?
=====
I'll buy the proper bar or make something (have you SEEN the price of the Velux bars?).

I bought one of these for about £8 a couple of year ago from Jewson but depending on your layout of the room for the length of the pullcord to fix to the wall.

Might be idea to buy a electric kit as you may use it a lot especially in the kitchen. I have a electric one in my bathroom and would be without it, mind you I can't reach it anyway! (16' high !)
I thought your price was reasonable, mind you I live in the south-east so the price would've been higher!

 

[tim00]

1. As regards price, if i had done the job my way it would have cost you more, so dont get too concerned about price, it looks like a fine job. Horses for courses.
2. I dont think that Masona's venting idea will work, and iv'e learned much from his posts. Because there's a fascia on 3 sides the vents would have to be one per each roof plane.
3. Compo is a trade name for sand and cement.
4. With solid wall only stepped flashing is reqd.
5. Ref. the Velux, whatever closing method you use it must be positive locking for security. I take it that you have a light well: the cheeks/sides must be insulated because the heat will rise there.
6. Given the solid wall construction, how old is your house?
7. If you are going to work on the ceiling then i'd strongly advise an access trap: consider, tracing any leaks,future re-wiring and venting. It's bad practice to have any inaccessible spaces esp. in the roof.
Hope my suggestions help, it's only my two cents worth.

 

[tim00]

I've just looked back at your earlier pics and ref. the venting perhaps Masona's right and i'm wrong. There does seem to be depth at the fascia /joist tails for air bricks. Well spotted Masona, a much cheaper and practicable solution. I'm often wrong and i have one who often tells me so- in careful detail.
The only consideration in this case though , is the old felt roof still being in position. Could be a little tricky.

 

[masona]

Hey, I'm not always right

Like I say I don't know how the roof layout is.

The other one I can think of is a plastic vent mesh which sit on top of the fascia board under the first row of tiles.

 

[chappers]

Just make it a warm roof pack your insulation right up and fit a plastic membrane under your ceiling joists to prevent moist air entering your roof space

 

[tim00]

Masona, the eaves tile vent method is only cost effective on new work. Too late, i'm afraid.

Chappers, Fair suggestion but this is now a pitched roof and warm and cold roofs are only applicable to flat roof construction. I personally think that warm roofs are time bombs given to soaking the joist bays with condensation unless all the construction details are perfect.