fused spurs / double Pole Switches

But BS 1363 would be related to the socket outlet as the switch/isolator would come under BS 3676.
So why would the fact that the isolator was not BS1363 be a concern?
 
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But BS 1363 would be related to the socket outlet as the switch/isolator would come under BS 3676. So why would the fact that the isolator was not BS1363 be a concern?
Because, for those who are pedantic about adherence to the word of the regs (certainly not me!), the regs say that the only things which may be connected to ring final circuits are "accessories to BS1363".

Kind Regards.John.
 
You won't find a junction box which is one either, but Appendix 15 shows them on ring finals.
Indeed - so I'll leave you to work out the relationship between the words of the regs and the content of that 'informative' Appendix :) Such pedanticism (about switches etc.) is obviously nonsense, and the common sense of the situation is, IMO, very clear.

Kind Regards, John
 
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Because, for those who are pedantic about adherence to the word of the regs (certainly not me!), the regs say that the only things which may be connected to ring final circuits are "accessories to BS1363".
Just out of sheer interest, where in BS7671, does it state that only accessories of BS1363 type can be used on a RFC?
 
It doesn't, it's in the ring final regulated-exception (new buzz word) which starts off by saying that 'accessories to BS 1363 may be supplied through...'.

This allows the strange 32/30A protected ring main supplying with 20A ccc cables to be used.

What it doesn't (should?) mention is that this applies to outlets, not accessories used to joint cables and switch spurs etc, although common sense should tell us that as long as those accessories have a 20A rating, they should be OK.
 
Anyone who is concerned about compliance is free to document it as a departure. They will, after all, have declared that to the best of their knowledge and belief they exercised reasonable skill and care when choosing the accessory, and that the resulting degree of safety of the installation is not less than it would have been had they not used it.
 
It doesn't, it's in the ring final regulated-exception (new buzz word) which starts off by saying that 'accessories to BS 1363 may be supplied through...'. This allows the strange 32/30A protected ring main supplying with 20A ccc cables to be used.
Indeed so.
What it doesn't (should?) mention is that this applies to outlets, not accessories used to joint cables and switch spurs etc, although common sense should tell us that as long as those accessories have a 20A rating, they should be OK.
Quite. As I said:
Such pedanticism (about switches etc.) is obviously nonsense, and the common sense of the situation is, IMO, very clear.
Having said that, as PBoD's earlier comment illustrated, application of that common sense can rely on the assumption (which he he was not making) that a double socket can only represent a total load of 20A. How would you feel about a 20A switch in a spur to a double socket?

Kind Regards, John
 
How would you feel about a 20A switch in a spur to a double socket?
No worse than I would feel about a dobule socket supplied with a spur made of 20A rated cable or a double socket where the socket itself is only built to take 20A.

Which is to say in most domestic environments it's fairly low risk but if there are a large number of heavy loads arround with 13A plugs on then IMO double sockets should be avoided.
 
How would you feel about a 20A switch in a spur to a double socket?
No worse than I would feel about a dobule socket supplied with a spur made of 20A rated cable or a double socket where the socket itself is only built to take 20A.
I agree - but, as I've said countless times, I'm amazed that double sockets "only built to take 20A" were ever allowed.
Which is to say in most domestic environments it's fairly low risk but if there are a large number of heavy loads arround with 13A plugs on then IMO double sockets should be avoided.
Per above comments, I have to agree with that, too. Whilst undoubtedly 'low risk', the situation in domestic environments is, of course, a 'gamble' - since the designer has no control over what gets plugged in, coupled with the fact that I feel sure that the great majority of the general public believe that 2 x 13A loads would be acceptable (should they have such loads to plug in). Problems resulting from a washing machine and tumble dryer plugged into the same double socket are, of course, far from unknown.

Kind Regards, John
 
I agree - but, as I've said countless times, I'm amazed that double sockets "only built to take 20A" were ever allowed.
But as I've said countless times, they aren't!

Dual 13A sockets need only be tested for heat rise at 20A.
 
I agree - but, as I've said countless times, I'm amazed that double sockets "only built to take 20A" were ever allowed.
But as I've said countless times, they aren't! Dual 13A sockets need only be tested for heat rise at 20A.
Yes, I realise that but:
(a)...a socket which passed the 20A temperature rise test would presumably be compliant with BS1363 (assuning that it was compliant in every other way) even if it excessively overheated at 26A
(b)...there's that famous document from MK knocking around (although no-one seems to know where it came from, other that it was reproduced in the IET forum) indicating that (IIRC) unacceptable damage occurs at ~23A continuous
(c)...there appear to have been plenty of examples of sockets overheating when subjected to long-lasting loads approaching 26A total.

Maybe I should have worded my statement slightly differently and said that I am amazed that BS1363 didn't include tests to confirm that the sockets could tolerate 26A loads for substantial periods of time.

Kind Regards, John
 
I'm also surprised, but I wouldn't go so far as to say amazed, given the other applications of the diversity principle. Perhaps you should suggest a test at 26A when the next revision of the standard starts.

I'm also surprised that no 'quality' manufacturer has produced a dual 13A socket that is actually rated at, and suitable for, 26A.

An interesting test might be to set up 2 single 13A sockets in a wooden block reasonably close to the one specified in BS1363 for the temperature rise test, and test the pair of singles at 26A (actually it should be at 28A) then see what temperature was reached. Where's RF when you need him!
 
I'm also surprised, but I wouldn't go so far as to say amazed, given the other applications of the diversity principle.
I take your point, but I don't think it's quite the same as most manifestations of diversity.
Perhaps you should suggest a test at 26A when the next revision of the standard starts.
Given that the horse bolted decades ago, I think that might now almost do more harm than good - since millions of '20A tested' ones are going to still be in service for very many years, even if new '26A tested' ones appeared. The confusion might therefore be even greater, and we could not give generic advice that two large loads should not be plugged into the same double socket.
I'm also surprised that no 'quality' manufacturer has produced a dual 13A socket that is actually rated at, and suitable for, 26A.
Same here. Some people used to claim that MK ones were, but the document to which I referred (albeit not dated) seems to contradict that. Current MK technical documentation is pretty ambiguous - it actually gives the 'rating' as '13A per socket outlet', whatever that means. In fact, whilst I can see ways of interpreting that as '13A total' or '26A total', it's not so obvious how it could be taken to mean, say, '20A total'!
An interesting test might be to set up 2 single 13A sockets in a wooden block reasonably close to the one specified in BS1363 for the temperature rise test, and test the pair of singles at 26A (actually it should be at 28A) then see what temperature was reached. Where's RF when you need him!
One would presumably also have to do the same with a double one, for comparison?

Kind Regards, John
 

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