Garage conversion electrics - unrestricted work?

[monkeyhanger75]

Sorry - it's a big post, but I put in as much detail as I thought necessary.

My house has an integral garage at the back (the front third sticks out beyond the back wall of the house), with a side door from the kitchen and I am looking to convert it to a dining room/utility area (freezer and washing machine only - no sinks etc), with a patio door over the opening where the garage door currently is.

In my garage, the electrics comprise of the following:-

Double plug socket at the back of the garage, part of the main downstairs sockets ring, a 1 way light switch at the front of the garage for the light, and the consumer unit for the house, which is halfway along the cavity wall which has the kitchen at the other side.

I have requested a price from a spark to:-

1. Make the light system a 2 way, with another light switch at the other end of the garage, next to the proposed opening to the kitchen.

2. Add some extra plug sockets along the long wall that faces the neighbours side.

3. Move the consumer unit approximately 3m from halfway along the wall that meets with the kitchen, to the back wall of the garage (and into the proposed "utility" area.

Obviously the consumer unit is a proper sparkys job, but he's proposing a joint box that's half the size of the consumer unit itself that requires access for any problems in the future. With that in mind, i'm tempted to leave the consumer box where it is (right up against a brick column that is in line with the end of the main part of the house (where it meets with the garage end that extends beyond the main back wall of the house) and cupboard it in.

If I were to leave the consumer unit alone, adding in a few plug sockets to the existing ring and making the light a 2 way 2 switch system are relatively easy, so i'm loathed to pay a sparky to do them.

I read through the Part P (2010) guide and it states a number of jobs that are non-notifiable. I am under the impression that jobs 1 and 2 above involve no new circuit and are therefore non-notifiable jobs. Table 1 on page 8 of the PDF states that:-

1. Adding lighting points (light fittings and switches) to an existing circuit*
2. Adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit*

* Only if the existing circuit protective device is suitable and provides protection for the modified circuit, and other relevant safety provisions are satisfactory.

Does this mean then that the building regs inspector won't be bothered that I have done points 1 and 2, so I can avoid one of those huge inspection fees?

What other safety provisions are required if I do this, to avoid said inspection fees?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Does this mean then that the building regs inspector won't be bothered that I have done points 1 and 2, so I can avoid one of those huge inspection fees?

That the electrical work in isolation would be non-notifiable is irrelevant - the overall project is, and as Part P applies all the time you'll have to describe how you will comply with that in the same way that you'll have to describe how you'll comply with all the other regulations and requirements which apply.

What other safety provisions are required if I do this, to avoid said inspection fees?

You need to ask your LABC - you may not be able to avoid it. Compliance with BS 7671, the Wiring Regulations, including testing, would be the easiest way.

 

[monkeyhanger75]

I haven't submitted anything to the building regs people yet, for the project, i'm just at the pricing up stage. How would they know that the 2 way light switches and an extra few plug sockets weren't already there If they were fitted before the first inspection (apart from the trunking looking quite clean?). If no more notifiable electrics work was getting done (i.e. decide not to have the consumer unit moved).

So am I right in thinking that as a garage unconverted, it is my right as unrestricted work to be able to fit my 2 way additional lightswitch and add a socket or 2 to the ring from the socket that is already there? Am I also right that if the sockets and the switch are already there before we go ahead with the work and get the building regs out for their first inspection prior to work that they will ignore what electrical work is already there as long as no additions are made during the project?


Doing the 2 way light thing is something i've been meaning to do for ages, it's daft that the only light switch is at the garage door end of the garage and I don't have one at the internal door to the garage (I have to stumble to the other end of the garage.

 

[JohnW2]

Does this mean then that the building regs inspector won't be bothered that I have done points 1 and 2, so I can avoid one of those huge inspection fees?

That the electrical work in isolation would be non-notifiable is irrelevant - the overall project is, and as Part P applies all the time you'll have to describe how you will comply with that in the same way that you'll have to describe how you'll comply with all the other regulations and requirements which apply.

What other safety provisions are required if I do this, to avoid said inspection fees?

You need to ask your LABC - you may not be able to avoid it.

I'm a bit confused here - maybe I misunderstand the system. Whilst I agree that, in the context of the Building Regs application as a whole, it would be necessary to indicate how compliance with part P was going to be achieved (e.g. "by complying with BS7671"), does LABC have the ability/right to demand an inspection (at appplicant's cost) of electrical work which is non-notifiable? I would have presumed not, but you seem to be implying the opposite.

If there is an issue, as the OP has just implied, perhaps the solution would get the extension signed off by LABC with just the current electrics present, and then undertake the (non-notifiable) electrical work subsequently.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Chri5]

Does the labc need any details, wouldn't the project be inside the rules of permitted development?

I've never really come across jobs that are pd so I'm not sure what the process v labc apply

 

[flameport]

Permitted development is a planning permission issue, nothing to do with building control.

As has already been pointed out, converting a garage into a habitable room is notifiable work regardless of what electrical alterations are done.
As the fees are based on the total value of work, it is unlikely a few extra sockets or lights will make any difference at all.

 

[JohnW2]

As the fees are based on the total value of work, it is unlikely a few extra sockets or lights will make any difference at all.

I'm not so sure about that - you may be overlooking the 'extras'. As the OP said, what he would be hoping to avoid would be having to pay for the cost of an electrical inspection commisioned by the LABC (remembering some of the ludicrous such 'inspection fees we've recenetly heard of here), over and above the notification fee (which, as you say, would probably be minimally affected, if at all, by the electrical work). However,a s I wrote before, I'm far from convinced that the LABC could commission (and charge applicant for) an inspection of electrical work which would, in itself, be exempt from the need for notification.

Kind Regards, John

 

[monkeyhanger75]

Just to clarify, as per John W's assumption, i'm not trying to do the garage conversion without any building inspection notification - the fee is £270 and it's a given that I will be paying it before I get started properly. I just want to avoid all those LABC inspection fees (that look like they cost as much as having the work done by a qualified electrician).

I was hoping that If I did add a few plug sockets myself and make a 1 way light into a 2 way light before everything officially started (as per supposed non-notifiable works) then the building regs inspector would not take any special interest in non-notifiable works in terms of insisting on an LABC conversion.

These building regs look like a minefield of interpretation. I'm a very competent DIYer and have done plenty of replacement electrics before and added a socket or spur onto a ring before.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I'm a bit confused here - maybe I misunderstand the system. Whilst I agree that, in the context of the Building Regs application as a whole, it would be necessary to indicate how compliance with part P was going to be achieved (e.g. "by complying with BS7671"),

And therefore Building Control will want to assure themselves that that was actually done.

does LABC have the ability/right to demand an inspection (at appplicant's cost) of electrical work which is non-notifiable? I would have presumed not, but you seem to be implying the opposite.

My understanding, from what people have reported here in the past, is that that is how the system works. And it's perfectly logical. Exempt from notification does not mean exempt from the regulations, so when you're asking the council to give you a piece of paper saying that your <whatever> complies with the regulations they will want to assure themselves that it does. If part of the work can't be self-certified by an appropriately registered person then Building Control will have to inspect it themselves.

That's why, in another topic, I made the assumption that the electrician could not self-certify because the BCO was concerning himself with the electrics.

If there is an issue, as the OP has just implied, perhaps the solution would get the extension signed off by LABC with just the current electrics present, and then undertake the (non-notifiable) electrical work subsequently.

That would be a plan.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I was hoping that If I did add a few plug sockets myself and make a 1 way light into a 2 way light before everything officially started (as per supposed non-notifiable works) then the building regs inspector would not take any special interest in non-notifiable works in terms of insisting on an LABC conversion.

How could they take an interest? The project would not include any electrical work.

 

[monkeyhanger75]

Banallsheds: That was what I was thinking, I was just after confirmation that if I do the 2 way switch and add a few plugs ("for the garage as a garage") before officially starting everything off then they have nothing to check on (electrics wise that may incur a further LABC inspection fee) as there was no additional electrical work during the project.

If I have understood your post correctly as per the reply above then that will be great if I decide not to go ahead with moving the consumer unit. It will definitely save a few quid.

Thanks for everyones help!

 

[JohnW2]

I'm a bit confused here - maybe I misunderstand the system. Whilst I agree that, in the context of the Building Regs application as a whole, it would be necessary to indicate how compliance with part P was going to be achieved (e.g. "by complying with BS7671"),

And therefore Building Control will want to assure themselves that that was actually done.

Maybe - but that's obviously what I'm questioning (because I just don't know how LABC interpret the situation). In general, whilst all electrical work has to comply with Part P, LABC take no interest (and have no way of taking an interest) in trying to find out what non-notifiable work has been undertaken, and hence whether it has been undertaken in compliance with Part P. If that's the general situation, then it is far from clear (at least, to me) that they will necessarily take that interest simply because, unusually, they have been made aware of 'non-notifiable' work having been undertaken, by virtue of some 'other' application.

does LABC have the ability/right to demand an inspection (at appplicant's cost) of electrical work which is non-notifiable? I would have presumed not, but you seem to be implying the opposite.

My understanding, from what people have reported here in the past, is that that is how the system works. And it's perfectly logical. Exempt from notification does not mean exempt from the regulations, so when you're asking the council to give you a piece of paper saying that your <whatever> complies with the regulations they will want to assure themselves that it does. If part of the work can't be self-certified by an appropriately registered person then Building Control will have to inspect it themselves.

As above, I'm not sure that it's 'perfectly logical' to me. I suppose it depends to some extent on what the piece of paper says - but it would be very easily for them to word it such that it did not encompass 'non-notifiable' electrical work (which, under normal circumstances, they would not even be aware of).

Anyway, I think we're agreed that the best way for the OP to avoid this (IMO rather silly!) situation (and, more important, 'unnecessary' electrical inpection fees) is to undertake the non-notifiable electrical work either before or after the LABC application is 'active'.

Kind Regards, John