Gas Supply Pipe Size Query

[fixitflav]

would have been upgraded by the previous home owner who installed the boiler.

Why do you think that? Possibly the installer replaced a heat-only boiler of much lower rating without checking the pipe size. And was happy as the new boiler works OK.

Is it possible to get a Gas Safe engineer to identify exactly what Size boiler I can install without being able to access the pipe?

Yes, get some pressure measurements. That will tell you whether you're currently meeting the regs, and if so, how much margin there is for higher rated boiler. If you're not meeting the regs, you have to decide what, if anything, to do about it. That's apart from the buried pipe being a possible problem. But if you get a gas man in, rather than doing your own measurements as suggested earlier, there's a chance he'll say the system must be shut down till it's fixed.

 

[old duffer]

A Gas Registered installer is expected to install a supply pipe which gives 1 mb or less of pressure loss between the meter and the boiler inlet.

Since the pressure loss cannot be accurately calculated as no one seems to know what size/type this 22m of pipe is then it needs to be measured. East enough to do.

However, there is another problem! Any new boiler is likely to be fitted to use the existing supply and that will need considerable care to manage the expected pressure problems.

I would also take the view that Gas Safe would be likely to consider the whole boiler installation as non compliant if part of the gas supply was in yellow plastic pipe under part of the building!

I know of an installer who was nearly struck off the register when he fitted a new boiler on an undersized pipe which went under the floor from front to back of the house. The floor was covered in engineered wood !

GAS SAFE is Capita, a private Ltd for profit company. It has the same statutory powers as any other private Ltd company..NONE WHATSOEVER..
They can have whatever opinion they like..its worthless, meaningless as they cant do squat.. the installation is either dangerous or not..that's all that matters, the rest is knit picking conjecture..

Is the appliance unsafe? hey, call gas safe..what will they do?...possibly pass it on to HSE...no wait, it's private dwelling, HSE can do squat..
OK so how about BC at the council? ...maybe, but they will need to sufficient evidence to warrant a warrant of entry....

GAS SAFE register is not about skill or competence...it's all about profit....and I can prove that categorically..

I pay my membership fee to capita and for the next 11 months, 30 days, 23 minutes and 59 seconds...I'm an esteemed engineer, of such high levels of competence that I can't ever make a mistake, I decide what's right and wrong...i'm a gas god...
but...if I don't pay the fee for the next year, I'm deemed to be neither competent nor an engineer...what changed? protection money was not paid.....

So being a competent person (BTW, under our common law, I can only be proven to be incompetent) and nearly stuck off the register LOL...and loose money for nothing? that's never going to happen...
you could also do a FOI request to them asking how many were defrocked....oh wait, you can't, they are a private company LOL

 

[fixitflav]

There have been discussions on this forum about gas regs, who is allowed to work on a boiler, how do you prove competence etc. As a DIY-er I don't claim to know much about it.

But are you saying nobody, gas safe engineer or anybody else, has the authority to say an installation is faulty in some way and must be shut down? Or that there is no comeback if the regs are not followed?

the installation is either dangerous or not..that's all that matters, the rest is knit picking conjecture.

How is dangerous defined? Some breaches of the regs would cause danger, but not all. Eg if the pressure drop from meter to boiler is say 2 mbar, that fails the regs but unlikely to be dangerous. Depending on the meter outlet pressure, the pressure at the boiler could still be above the boiler stated minimum, never mind the actual requirement.

I’m not having an argument, just want to clarify.

 

[Agile]

Gas registered engineers ( RGIs) are taught what are classed as unsafe situations many of which are based on a history and custom and practice.

They are not mostly based on any research or investigations into the actual risk.

There has historically been a fear of movement or cracking in buildings damaging gas pipes and so gas pipes must mostly be inside ducts or other protection to avoid damage to the gas pipe.

Plastic is not allowed inside buildings because plastic will melt in a fire and discharge the gas making the fire worse. Metal gas pipes will remain intact in most building fires and continue to contain the gas.

 

[fixitflav]

Gas registered engineers ( RGIs) are taught what are classed as unsafe situations many of which are based on a history and custom and practice.

OK, but do they have the authority to say the boiler must be shut down?

 

[ianmcd]

OK, but do they have the authority to say the boiler must be shut down?

Yes they can classify it as immediately dangerous, as long as it falls within certain categories, but cant shut the appleance down without the owners permission, if permission is denied then the gas supply will probably be terminated to the premises by the transporter, but in this case the plastic built over pipe is not immediately dangerous and shutting the boiler down would not remove the danger that it does pose, so no point in shutting the boiler down

 

[pcaouolte]

Yes they can classify it as immediately dangerous, as long as it falls within certain categories, but cant shut the appleance down without the owners permission, if permission is denied then the gas supply will probably be terminated to the premises by the transporter, but in this case the plastic built over pipe is not immediately dangerous and shutting the boiler down would not remove the danger that it does pose, so no point in shutting the boiler down

That's exactly as it occurred with my built over plastic pipe. The built over plastic pipe was from the mains supply in the road to the meter. Capping the supply at the meter would not have made the installation any safer so I was allowed to continue using it until Cadent could relocate the meter and the plastic supply outside the building.

 

[old duffer]

Many years ago, I was surveying a large property for a renewable energy audit and on looking at the old gas burner, noticed a sticker that read "danger do not operate". The burner was on at the time so I asked the obvious question as to why the sign. The owner said that they had BG service the appliance every year and every year it gets condemned and switched off. Soon as the man leaves, we turn it back on again they said.

The reason it was condemned was it had a asbestos flue running out through the kitchen wall.....but the BG man said he had to switch it off because of asbestos...and advised them to just switch it back on.

So if plastic pipe is a no no, then why are all gas mains plastic?
Can anyone provide a link to a documented situation where a plumber condemned an appliance, the home owner refused to accept it was dangerous and as a result of the plumber reporting it,national grid came along and cut-off the gas supply to the property!

 

[pcaouolte]

So if plastic pipe is a no no, then why are all gas mains plastic?

Plastic pipe is fine under a road, your drive, the footpath round your house and up to your outside meter box. It can't be used inside the property in case it melts during a fire and adds more fuel to the fire. I am not Gas Safe registered but this is how it was explained to me when I had a plastic gas pipe emerging from the floor of an extension.

 

[JohnD]

in my road, the local operator had a 2-day purge when they dug up quite a number of houses to run new internal metal pipes and disconnect the old plastic.

They had road diggers and drive-layers and did a nice job of paving reinstatement, quick work. I can't quite remember but I think they sent installers into each house to purge the pipes and restart the boilers and cookers.

My house has a meter box on the outside wall, with iron pipe downstream of the meter, so didn't need alteration. Some of them were in the hall, or an integral bin cupboard, or the integral garage.

In a previous house I had lead meter connectors replaced with steel anacondas (?) for the same reason

 

[fixitflav]

Plastic pipe is fine under a road, your drive, the footpath round your house and up to your outside meter box. It can't be used inside the property in case it melts during a fire and adds more fuel to the fire. I am not Gas Safe registered but this is how it was explained to me when I had a plastic gas pipe emerging from the floor of an extension.

I wouldn't have thought a plastic pipe buried under a concrete floor would be much of a risk. The minimum depth could be specified. Perhaps it's the part where it emerges from the floor that's the concern.

 

[ianmcd]

I wouldn't have thought a plastic pipe buried under a concrete floor would be much of a risk. The minimum depth could be specified. Perhaps it's the part where it emerges from the floor that's the concern.

Doesnt matter you cant build over it

 

[fixitflav]

Doesnt matter you cant build over it

Yes, I gathered that! Just commenting. BTW the OP has gone a bit quiet

 

[ianmcd]

Can anyone provide a link to a documented situation where a plumber condemned an appliance, the home owner refused to accept it was dangerous and as a result of the plumber reporting it,national grid came along and cut-off the gas supply to the property!

A lot more common than you think, but when the transporter appears and tells them they will have to pay a very high fee to get it back on they suddenly change their mind

 

[fixitflav]

A lot more common than you think, but when the transporter appears and tells them they will have to pay a very high fee to get it back on they suddenly change their mind

Not with you. Who would have to pay the fee, the GSR man or the home owner?