got a neon tester screwdriver? yes? then read this

I seem to remember neons and other gas discharge diodes (I am talking glass electrical valves here) were used as voltage reference sources, because the voltage drop across it is very well defined, being a physical property of the kind or gas inside. Before they invented zeners. Quite a bit before. So it has a very long history as a precision electrical component.

Only it measures voltage rather more accurately than current. It pretty much gives an on/off reading. Which is the first and most essential thing you want to know. The exact value of mains voltage is not something I am normally interested in.

Merry Christmas one and all
 
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my point is that they are unreliable, giving "false readings"

for example if a lamp is connected to live it will say the neutral is live, since the current will flow from the live through the lamp and back up the neutral, when the actual problem is there is no neutral.
a multimeter will not tell you this, but if you know how to use one you will soon figure the problem is no neutral
 
From : - http://www.e-repair.co.uk/lighter_side.htm

COINING IT !!

Some years ago I worked for a company that repaired Radios and TV's we had a call that the coin box on this ladies tv had stopped working.

On arrival at the house we examined the tv a 12inch floor model and could not find a coin box. The lady of the house explained that she put a shilling in the slot at the back and the tv worked, on a demonstration we discovered she had been using one of the vent holes in the back board that sloped away before dropping vertically to the floor.

On removal of the back board we discovered how the system worked the fuse had blown and on dropping a shilling through the slot it had bridged out the fuse until the vibration from the mains powered speaker dropped the coin into the lower speaker cavity. The reason that it stopped working was because the fuse holder blades had burnt off !!

We replaced these and supplied a new fuse and also returned the £50 in shillings (to the new sparks around 20 shillings to the pound) old money.

Peter
 
breezer said:
my point is that they are unreliable, giving "false readings"

for example if a lamp is connected to live it will say the neutral is live, since the current will flow from the live through the lamp and back up the neutral, when the actual problem is there is no neutral.

a multimeter will not tell you this, but if you know how to use one you will soon figure the problem is no neutral

There are some words missing here (I hope) otherwise it is along the lines of :
No cat has two tails,
One cat has one more tail than no cat,
therefore a cat has three tails.

Did you mean:

."....... if a lamp is connected between live and neutral it will say the neutral is live if it is checked with a neon tester, since the current will flow from the live through the lamp and back up the neutral, then down the tester, when the actual problem is there is no neutral."

This is not an unreliable indication, it's telling you exactly what's happening, that the neutral has risen to live voltage. I can't understand your problem, I have often diagnosed a break in a line by using a test lamp, neon or low voltage depending in the circuit. Furthermore I've diagnosed faulty amplifiers (low voltage not valve) using a small screwdriver only. No neon, no bulb, just finger and screwdriver.

I could go on, but I think your dislike of the neon tester is ok, it's your choice, but to say it's unreliable and gives false indications is unsound, misleading and not based on fact.
 
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Hey shaggy, that article is really interesting. I think I'll give up oil boilers and make sure I have no stethoscope to hand (or an upturned glass) and start listening to young ladies' chests. I'll learn to cope with the embarassment in time. :D
 
A change of career can be very stimulating. :LOL:
mxmas_e0.gif
 
I've been following this thread, but kept quiet until now..... ;)

A neon tester will not light up at any voltage. As has been pointed out above, it will light when the voltage exceeds the minimum striking voltage, typically around 90V peak. As with the discussion about digital meters recently though, you have to realize that the neon tester is an inherently high-impedance device. It can still be made to glow due to induced or capacitively coupled voltage from a conductor which is not actually connected to anything. The strength of the glow will vary depending upon whether this is the case or not, but the brightness depends upon many factors, including how good the earth return path is via the user's body. In short, under typical field conditions, all you can really say about the neon tester is that if it glows, then there's power around somewhere nearby. Under controlled conditions, neons can be very useful, and in fact years ago were employed as peak/null tuning indicators and similar applications. But that's a whole different ballgame.

With regard to safety of the user, the current flowing is restricted by (a) the neon itself and (b) the series limiting resistor. The actual current flowing is usually in the order of microamps. The series resistor is typically 220 kilohms or more, which in itself would limit current on a 240V circuit to about 1mA. Not counting cases of testers being dropped in water etc., it would take a failure of both components to deliver a substantial shock to the user, and that's rather unlikely. (And resistors of this value tend to go high or open-circuit when they fail rather than short out). Of course, if one connected to a high enough voltage there is the possibility of an arc-flash, but again, that's getting into a different realm.

Damocles said:
I seem to remember neons and other gas discharge diodes (I am talking glass electrical valves here) were used as voltage reference sources, because the voltage drop across it is very well defined, being a physical property of the kind or gas inside.

Cold-cathode voltage stabilizers were indeed used quite widely in the past -- The thermionic equivalent of today's zener diode, as you say. Though operating at higher voltages, typical applications were voltage references and as stabilizers for critical circuits, such as oscillators.
 
the talk of a neon dropped into water reminds me of what one of my university lecturers told me had happened to him with an anti static wrist strap

unbeknown to him a grad student using the wrist strap preciously had thought that it would never work with a 1 megohm resistor in it and bypassed the resistor

someone else working on the same bench as the guy was working on a power supplly

the bench matting was therefore accidently made live and the guy had his other hand on another peice of equipment which was earthed.

the arm with the wrist strap on locked solid and wouldn't move and became rather painfull

lukillly he lurched away from the bench and as he did so the cord to the wrist strap unclipped.

moral of theese kind of storys is if you are using ANY device which makes an electrical connection to the human body in an area where nontrivial voltages are present then you either test it before every use OR you make sure noone else touches it.

taking such precautions is no different from locking off an isolator before starting work.
 
plugwash said:
moral of theese kind of storys is if you are using ANY device which makes an electrical connection to the human body in an area where nontrivial voltages are present then you either test it before every use OR you make sure noone else touches it.
And note - you can get test devices for wriststraps, which connect to the mains, and have a touchpad. When you've put the strap on, you touch the pad with a finger, and it indicates whether you have a good connection with the appropriate impedance. You should never use a wrist strap, or indeed any anti-static devices, without checking that they are working properly.
 
Surely it's horses for courses. I have done a lot of work on static sensitive devices, but I never use an anti static wrist strap. They may become disconected, without you noticing, causing potential damage to equipment. There is also the potential for them to become more conductive, (due to sweat or other adulteration), causing danger to the wearer. I much prefer the manual method of discharging through the earthed copper pipe along the front of my workbench, as a positive method of anti-static working practice.

Sometimes I need the scope to check out electrical signals, other times a simple multimeter is up to the job. But if I'm faced with three calbes hangning out of a ceiling, where the rose should be, I'm quite happy to use a neon indicator to suss out which are the ring, and which is the switch pair.

Standing on a kitchen stool with a meter is a lot more prone to errors than a simple neon driver. You could end up with a lead comming out of a socket at the meter, your probe could slip off the cable as you look down at the meter, a probe lead may have a fracture. ALL of these faults lead to a false "safe" reading (potentially very dangerous).

If I use a neon, under the same circumstances, assuming that the driver is working at all, if it lights, it indicates a potential difference between my body and the point in question. Any spurious glowing caused by capacitance or whatever, would actually be a false "danger" signal. Therefore, the neon tester errs on the side of safety, whereas the multimeter errs towards being dangerous.

At the end of the day, even if I do happen to get the wrong leads from my rough test (very unlikely), what's the worst that's going to happen. I'll wire it all up, switch on the light, and a fuse will blow or an MCB will flip. Hardly life threatening. All that would be required would be a double check, with a meter, to find out what went wrong.

If anyone is going to be daft enough to connect an earth lead to the live (or make any other live threatening mistake), I can't see how the use of a multimeter would stop them.

The use of a finger on the wrist, neck or temple artery is usefull to tell if an unconcious accident victim is still alive, it will also give an indication if the patient is under stress. A stethescope is usefull go give a bit more information about how the heart is functioning, but an ECG is a far better indicator. You wouldn't expect a paramedic to connect up a full blown ECG machine to an accident victim, just to find out if he is alive.

Looking at which side of a tree trunk has the moss growing can be used to guestimate North. A fist at arms length will cover an area of about 10 degrees, (a thumb thickness about two degrees). Submarines, more usually, use a gyro compass. :D
 
neon screwdriver does have a major advantage over multimeters

what happens if both neutral and earth are disconnected. you take readings between phase and neutral and phase and earth. you get 0

you touch phase ad get a shock. if you used the neon, there would be ground so a voltage would show up
 
the point is if you have aT+E and only phase is connect and live for some reaon, then the neon will identify it as live where as the meter will display 0V between all conductors. only phase bein connected shouldnt happen but it could
 

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