Hanging heavy chandelier (17kg) - something missing???

[Sukie123]

Hi all,

I purchased a chandelier from Oka https://www.okadirect.com/curlicue-chandelier.aspx which comes with no instructions and their customer service aren't able to answer my questions - they suggest that it should be fitted by a professional electrician - although they fail to mention that anywhere when purchasing! I imagine getting an electrician over for this would be £100-£200 in London and I'm afraid they'd highlight the concerns below in any case. I would not touch Oka with a barge pole in the future.

Anyway, I have attached some photos below. I have installed a noggin from above and want to proceed to fit it. I was going to secure the metal plate to the noggin with 2 x 100mm no10 screws. But I feel something is wrong - I assume you screw the whole chandelier in the central hole from below but 17kg screwed a few mm into the center of that plate with no additional security just seems wrong? I could see scenarios where the whole thing could unscrew and crash to the ground quite easily.

Am I being overly cautious? Is there something else you would do to make it more secure? It looks like part of the lower chain can be removed and I don't know if this is a clue or a red herring.

Lastly, it looks like I'll have to wire it in the ceiling void - there are two earths that are wound together, I just assume I connect this to the existing earth wires from the circuit (I have bought some wago connectors that I was going to use). Any help appreciated, hopefully can get it sorted tomorrow.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I purchased a chandelier from Oka https://www.okadirect.com/curlicue-chandelier.aspx which comes with no instructions and their customer service aren't able to answer my questions - they suggest that it should be fitted by a professional electrician - although they fail to mention that anywhere when purchasing! I imagine getting an electrician over for this would be £100-£200 in London and I'm afraid they'd highlight the concerns below in any case. I would not touch Oka with a barge pole in the future.

That "if in doubt consult...." phrase is universal. I've even seen it on a pack of hinges. If you limit your purchases to companies who provide full instructions which are both detailed enough for anybody, no matter what their skill or knowledge level, to understand, and wide-ranging enough to cover every possible material issue encountered when fitting, you will end up living naked in the open air with not one single possession.

Anyway, I have attached some photos below. I have installed a noggin from above and want to proceed to fit it. I was going to secure the metal plate to the noggin with 2 x 100mm no10 screws.

Sounds more than adequate. Looks like you could use more screws if you wanted.

But I feel something is wrong - I assume you screw the whole chandelier in the central hole from below but 17kg screwed a few mm into the center of that plate with no additional security just seems wrong?

I cant see how it screws/unscrews - I'm guessing that the rose is not separate - it is fixed to the threaded tube, and has an integral loop on the bottom which the chain hangs from?

I imagine the idea is that you screw the thing hard against the ceiling, at which point friction will stop anything except really abnormal vibrations from working it loose.

I could see scenarios where the whole thing could unscrew and crash to the ground quite easily.

Someone will be along shortly with an amusing clip from Only Fools And Horses....

Am I being overly cautious?

On the evidence of you thinking you need 100mm screws, I'd say quite possibly.

But it's always better for screws to be too large or too many than too small or too few, and better to be over cautious than foolhardy when fixing something that could kill someone if it falls off.

Is there something else you would do to make it more secure?

You have access from above - can you tell if when it's installed the threaded tube would protrude far enough for you to get a locknut onto it? Apart from that I can't think of anything offhand. Loctite?

It looks like part of the lower chain can be removed and I don't know if this is a clue or a red herring.

Those removable links are to allow you to shorten the chain.

If the flex feeds through the tube easily then you could also remove the chandelier to make it easier to deal with getting the rose screwed into place.

Lastly, it looks like I'll have to wire it in the ceiling void - there are two earths that are wound together, I just assume I connect this to the existing earth wires from the circuit (I have bought some wago connectors that I was going to use). Any help appreciated, hopefully can get it sorted tomorrow.

That single earth wire should not be left unprotected in the ceiling void. Nor should any connectors.

 

[Jackrae]

Happy to oblige

 

[Nicole23]

That "if in doubt consult...." phrase is universal. I've even seen it on a pack of hinges. If you limit your purchases to companies who provide full instructions which are both detailed enough for anybody, no matter what their skill or knowledge level, to understand, and wide-ranging enough to cover every possible material issue encountered when fitting, you will end up living naked in the open air with not one single possession.

I get your point but I have hung a couple of these before and there tend to be some basic pictures as a minimum. Add to that I have researched this online and asked around. Even the Oka delivery guy commented saying it was an odd design (well he actually said something a lot more derogatory than that but moving on...!). Testament to my poor experience with Oka, they delivered a second one this morning as the first one was missing some decorative parts.

I cant see how it screws/unscrews - I'm guessing that the rose is not separate - it is fixed to the threaded tube, and has an integral loop on the bottom which the chain hangs from?

I imagine the idea is that you screw the thing hard against the ceiling, at which point friction will stop anything except really abnormal vibrations from working it loose.

That's exactly right in your description. But the metal threaded tube can only screw up approx 2-4mm past the plate before being flush with the ceiling I would think.

I'm using the 100mm screws as I have a few left over from fixing the noggin. They are huge granted.

You have access from above - can you tell if when it's installed the threaded tube would protrude far enough for you to get a locknut onto it? Apart from that I can't think of anything offhand. Loctite?

When screwed in, the threaded tube will be flush with the noggin - I'm guessing I could use a hole saw all the way through the noggin and given that I will have access then, I could tighten a bolt onto it? I could then also have the wires entering the ceiling void via this route too?

That single earth wire should not be left unprotected in the ceiling void. Nor should any connectors.

I have bought a wago lighting junction box too - I thought this was the belt and braces way of doing it (I will make the connections with wago lighting wire connectors). Let me know if you think otherwise.

http://www.screwfix.com/p/wagobox-light-junction-box/8423f
http://www.screwfix.com/p/3-way-lighting-connector-224-series-pack-of-100/33918

Thanks.

 

[Nicole23]

That clip appeared much sooner that I thought it would

 

[Sukie123]

Made a mess of that - logged onto the girlfriend's laptop which had her log-in details. But it's me, the original poster!

 

[securespark]

I can't see how the cup attaches either. Yes, as Ban says, you could put more screws in: two on each slot and if you're still worried in the smaller holes as well.

What I used to do with a fitting like this was to remove links till the fitting was at the desired height, but keep the flex intact in case the fitting was ever reused elsewhere.

The excess flex would be looped out into the ceiling void and back into the cup where the connections could be made off

 

[Sukie123]

Thanks for the replies - on the top, the threaded tube is screwed into the cup. I can completely detached the threaded tube if I unscrew it. Under the cup, the chain is attached on a loop on the cup.

 

[securespark]

Are there any locknuts to go on the threaded rod either side of the ceiling bracket?

 

[securespark]

Normally, the bracket that screws to the ceiling is shaped so the centre is spaced off the ceiling and there is a locknut in the recess and one on the other side of the bracket.

Other designs have a non-threaded tube with a hook or loop on the end designed to hang on the ceiling bracket then the cup is offered up to the ceiling and held in place with a grub screw, like this one.
http://www.diychatroom.com/f18/help-mounting-british-chandelier-us-59077/

Your bracket and rod (if not the whole assembly) are like this one which looks like it is designed to attach to a US style ceiling box.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=c...mw5mUM:;0QJiG4wTKpsUkM:&imgrc=awBi9_Wpmw5mUM:

 

[ericmark]

The standard ceiling rose

is rated at 5 kg at 17 kg it is something rather special, the chain has carabiners from picture so it is clearly designed so you install the plate then re-hang the chandelier so some where some how you need to be able to connect or disconnect cables without removing the chandelier. Using a plug something like this

at the side of the chain would seem a good method. Commercially one normally has a suspended ceiling and one can remove a ceiling panel and plug in to a socket in the void. However not so easy with domestic, in the main domestic chandeliers are under the 5 kg limit so one can wire on the ground then simply plug in.

 

[Sukie123]

Are there any locknuts to go on the threaded rod either side of the ceiling bracket?

unfortunately not.

Normally, the bracket that screws to the ceiling is shaped so the centre is spaced off the ceiling and there is a locknut in the recess and one on the other side of the bracket.

I saw that online too - no idea why they couldn't replicate that.

Your bracket and rod (if not the whole assembly) are like this one which looks like it is designed to attach to a US style ceiling box.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=c...mw5mUM:;0QJiG4wTKpsUkM:&imgrc=awBi9_Wpmw5mUM:

That's about the closest looking set-up I can find. But guessing I can't get that ceiling box over here.

The standard ceiling rose

is rated at 5 kg at 17 kg it is something rather special, the chain has carabiners from picture so it is clearly designed so you install the plate then re-hang the chandelier so some where some how you need to be able to connect or disconnect cables without removing the chandelier. Using a plug something like this

at the side of the chain would seem a good method. Commercially one normally has a suspended ceiling and one can remove a ceiling panel and plug in to a socket in the void. However not so easy with domestic, in the main domestic chandeliers are under the 5 kg limit so one can wire on the ground then simply plug in.

Not sure I totally understand this set-up, will have a re-read on the way home.

Thanks for the helpful responses. I WILL get this set-up tomorrow

 

[stillp]

Can you work out any way of attaching a support wire that could be looped around the nogging you've fixed? Picture frame hanging wire, garden wire or something similar?

 

[Iggifer]

Leading on from Stillp's suggestion, catenary wire around the noggin with proper screw down clamps would be a good fail safe

 

[333rocky333]

My lights had similar, really you need someone to help and hold the light, dont hang it on the wire.
The way i do them is,

first undo one of the chain links, then spin the hook off the bottom of the thread, hold the thread bit inside the cup with grips if needbe.

Drill a hole about 10mm through the nogging, centre of light into the void and a second hole either beside or also through the nogging, both big enough for the cable to pass through but the second close enough for the cable to come back still inside the diameter of the ceiling cup,

screw that metal bar to your ceiling with the thread still in it,

with someone holding the chandelier thread the flex cable, through any chain links if needbe, through the hook, though the cup, up via the hole then back down again. check the white little grommets are still in place.

Connect all up under the ceiling including the second earth,push excess flex back up into the void, push the cup up gently and screw on the hook.
Any connections will now be contained in the cup.

Finally rejoin the chain.

No need for loctite, im sure no one will be spinning the fitting enough for it to unscrew, the thread length should be just long enough to put pressure on the thread as the bottom hook is screwed on, if not as the hook bottoms out,the thread will tighten slightly into the metal clip, hence the 10 mm hole above it to allow this if needbe.

if alone you can hang the fitting to assist by a decent peice of wire from the fitting hook or chain to a temporary screw in your nogging, though 2 people makes life easier