Having an electric shower replaced

No, it only has to be greater than 33.9A - which you said it was - the shower cannot overload the cable.
Oh, I see what you're getting at. Yes, strictly speaking, that's true. Whist we're at it, we might as well use 63A MCBs for all fixed loads unlikely to create an overload (showers, immersions, conventional ovens/cookers etc.) - provided only that Zs was low enough for fault protection :)

Kind Regards, John.
 
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Well, you can go to the extreme if you want - but 40A is the correct rating for the shower and the cable.

It is only the insulation which has caused doubts and as I said the 40A or 32A MCB will not affect the current drawn .
 
Well, you can go to the extreme if you want - but 40A is the correct rating for the shower and the cable.
Well, perhaps I have misunderstood you - but since you've invoked 433.3.1(ii), your position seemed to be that any MCB (with an In ≥ Ib) has 'a correct rating for the shower and the cable' (since the cable, and hence the MCB is "unlikely to carry overload current"), provided only that fault protection is adequate (hence my 'extreme' example) - is that not the case?

I have to say that, for me, this is a situation in which my ('irrational') heart tends to win over my ('rational') head. No matter how much my head tells me that a certain type of load is extremely unlikely to result in an overload current, it still feels comforting ('to my heart') to know that a protective device will operate if, for whatever reason, the load does somehow mange to result in a current appreciably more than during normal service (but not a 'fault' current). I suspect that I am not alone in that, even if it is 'irrational'.

Kind Regards, John
 
Well, perhaps I have misunderstood you - but since you've invoked 433.3.1(ii), your position seemed to be that any MCB (with an In ≥ Ib) has 'a correct rating for the shower and the cable' (since the cable, and hence the MCB is "unlikely to carry overload current"), provided only that fault protection is adequate (hence my 'extreme' example) - is that not the case?
That is the case.
However, it was only raised because you said the 40A MCB was overrated, and so non-compliant, for the derated CCC of the cable under the thermal insulation. That is not the case.

I have to say that, for me, this is a situation in which my ('irrational') heart tends to win over my ('rational') head. No matter how much my head tells me that a certain type of load is extremely unlikely to result in an overload current, it still feels comforting ('to my heart') to know that a protective device will operate if, for whatever reason, the load does somehow mange to result in a current appreciably more than during normal service (but not a 'fault' current). I suspect that I am not alone in that, even if it is 'irrational'.
Is that a bit like Winston's aversion for compliant sockets on 6A circuits?
 
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That is the case. However, it was only raised because you said the 40A MCB was overrated, and so non-compliant, for the derated CCC of the cable under the thermal insulation. That is not the case.
Agreed - if you are invoking the fact that a shower does not need any overload protection at all, then (as far as overload protection is concerned) there clearly is no such a thing as an "over-rated MCB" - hypothetically, a 1000A one would do if it were able to provide the required fault protection (which obviously would not be the case).
Is that a bit like Winston's aversion for compliant sockets on 6A circuits?
If anything, I'd say that it is probably less rational than Winston's view - in as much as he doesn't have to scrape the barrel as deeply to think up very unlikely scenarios in which the sockets on a 'lighting' circuit could represent a significant problem as how deeply I would have to scrape the barrel to explain how, in exceptional circumstances, a shower could result in an overload current!

However, it's all about 'human nature', and I very much doubt that I ('my heart') am alone! Whatever the reasons/reasoning, I strongly suspect that many electricians would not even think of designing on the basis of a circuit requiring no overload protection - but maybe I'm wrong!

Kind Regards, John
 
You're not wrong to suspect that.

The world is full of people who refuse to make decisions based on evidence and facts.
 
The world is full of people who refuse to make decisions based on evidence and facts.
Whilst that's true, in the context we're talking it is not necessarily as simple as that - it also depends upon how risk-averse an approach is taken. As I have implied, if I were prepared to scrape the barrel deep enough, I could present an argument as to to how, say, an electric shower could, in exceptional circumstance produce an overload. Even though incredibly improbable, the 'facts' are that such a scenario would not be impossible - and one doesn't have to look further than this forum that some people are so risk-averse that they feel that incredibly small risks should be addressed.
 
You need to be sure. How do you know it's not 4mm? 4mm was used in the early days of electric showers.
As you will be aware, if the OP can get the short length of cable out from under insulation (so that the entire run is Method C), then 4 mm² cable would, in fact, be adequate for his 7.8 kW (at 230V) shower - and, if one were happy to take EFLI's approach, that would (Zs allowing) be OK on a B40 MCB (even those CCC was only 37A).

Kind Regards, John
 
one doesn't have to look further than this forum that some people are so risk-averse that they feel that incredibly small risks should be addressed.
As I said, the world is full of people who refuse to make decisions based on evidence and facts.
 
As I said, the world is full of people who refuse to make decisions based on evidence and facts.
... and, as I said, the interpretation of the facts is determined by the degree of risk-averseness of the person doing the interpretations.
The regs allow that overload protection may be omitted if the load is "not likely" to result in an overload current, without defining "not likely". The 'fact' is that there is a non-zero probability that a shower could result in an overload. In interpreting that 'fact', one person may regard "not likely" as being, say, <0.01%, whereas another may regard it as, say, <0.0001% or less.
 

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