HELP! advice needed Domestic Part Re-wire 17thEdition

[igiveitup]

Hello,

Can anyone give some help and much needed advice please, regarding questions listed below.

How could I tell if electrical work had just been connected up to old existing junction boxes? when quoted for new ring mains.

Had one existing cooker switched socket in kitchen, with a double socket running from it (if the cooker switched off, that isolated the other double socket) Along with two double & one single socket on another wall, also a fused switch and a single switched socket.

In the process of having new kitchen with induction hob, electric double oven, was told I needed new consumer unit, and kitchen on it's own ring main.

Led to believe I would have new 15 fuse box with 30amp oven on it's own ring, 30amp induction hob on it's own ring, seven double sockets on their own ring, and the lights on their own ring on three gang switch.

If this happened would it mean four individual ring mains which take up four fuses on the new consumer box? would all the new wires come direct from the consumer unit box into the walls and new socket locations etc?

Would be grateful for any help and advice anyone could give me please.

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[ericmark]

There are many ways to do things.
But likely to stop having to run multi-cables from consumer unit one would install a sub main with a second consumer unit for kitchen.
The sizes and types don't really seem to match up I would have expected.
32A Radial to hob
16A Radial to oven
32A ring for sockets
Unless there is a problem with lights i.e. no earth then lights left as it was.
It is possible also radials for washing machine, boiler, tumble drier but this would be up to guy doing the work as to if required.
There are variations and by using FCU's one may be able to not use any 16A MCB's and where a sub main is used this may come from original consumer unit or use a Henley block.
The latter needs heavier cable.

With any work you will get ether a minor works or an insulation certificate and with a kitchen you will also get a completion certificate. On the first certs it will list all the work done together with all the reading. I can't see how an electrician can issue certificates and not do the work.

So what has he said he did?

 

[flameport]

If you have been told you are getting a certain arrangement of circuits and a new consumer unit, then that is what you should get - otherwise what are you paying for?

If the kitchen circuits were all new, and specifically for the kitchen, then yes, you would have 4 circuit breakers appropriately labelled in the consumer unit for those circuits, and all of the cables would be new between the consumer unit and the sockets/lights etc.

However this isn't always necessary, and what is done will depend on the condition of the existing wiring, how much you are prepared to pay, and what alterations are required for the new kitchen.

It would be usual to put an induction hob and double oven on their own separate circuits. Some single ovens do not require separate circuits.
Sockets could go on their own ring circuit, or on one or more radials, or on circuits which are shared with other rooms/areas.
Lights could be a separate circuit, although this would be an unusual choice unless the kitchen is particularly large, or has dozens of energy wasting downlighters.

I'll also say that if you are having the kitchen company do the electrical installation, then expect problems.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Try speaking English, I haven't a clue what you're on about.

Try to consider the significant probablility that English is not the OP's first language.

 

[igiveitup]

Hello,
Firstly thank you all very much for your quick response and replies, much appreciated.

Approx 14months ago, I had the wiring of house checked by electrician with some additional sockets and lights added to the existing wiring also an RCD installed beside the consumer unit, a 17th part P edition certificate was issued. No Problems.

Now in the process of having the kitchen done, with elec induction hob, elec double oven, washer, tumble dryer, fridge freezer etc etc was told I needed a new consumer unit because of having induction hob and elec double oven. Told the kitchen would be better on it's own ring main, and all the old wiring needed ripping out and replaced with new.

What I asked for was:
Kitchen sockets on their own
Kitchen oven on it's own
Kitchen hob on it's own
If possible lights on their own and split so as not using all energy at the same time.
Agreed to new 15 way consumer unit, as thought new rings with a couple spare? Plus would have liked fuses labelled as: upstairs lights, upstairs sockets, downstairs lights, downstairs sockets, kitchen etc etc

What I think I have is:
Kitchen lights as they were on existing downstairs lighting, will be split onto a 2 gang switch
Two wires which I assume are for the kitchen sockets, 3 on one wall and four on another
One thicker wire which I think will be for the double oven
As there was already a ring for an electric oven, I think this has been jointed into an old round junction box above the ceiling, and then brought down the wall for the hob.

This troubles me, as the floor above cannot be lifted for access, and when a new ceiling goes in, there will be no access unless the ceiling is ripped down.
Would have thought a new feed would have come direct from the consumer unit (in kitchen understairs) through a tunnel chiselled into wall to a socket box, covered with trunking and finally plastered over.

It's the access point, along with jointing into old existing wiring possibly from the 60s that I find troublesome, regardless of whether it is in keeping with the current regulations or not?

I could be totally wrong here (not an electrician) but I would have expected a new consumer unit, to have run two new feeds one each for oven, one for hob, another two new feeds for sockets on each wall. Then if the lights were going solo, another new feed for the lights, five new wires of different thickness. Am I wrong??

 

[EFLImpudence]

Try speaking English, I haven't a clue what you're on about.

What was wrong with it? Perhaps a bit truncated but that's all.

No spelling mistakes - go on, tell me I missed one.

 

[cajar]

Try speaking English, I haven't a clue what you're on about.

Just because you're struggling to understand something does not mean that the author has failed in some way. There is another more likely possiblity.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I have tried to answer some of your questions but it is quite difficult from here. If the 'electrician' has not done what you wanted you should have discussed it with him before paying.

All I can suggest, at a distance, is that you ask another electrician to have a look and tell you if anything is against the regulations and should be rectified before you finish - or start - the decorating.

It's all a bit vague, but here goes:

Now in the process of having the kitchen done, with elec induction hob, elec double oven, washer, tumble dryer, fridge freezer etc etc was told I needed a new consumer unit because of having induction hob and elec double oven.

May be true

Told the kitchen would be better on it's own ring main, and all the old wiring needed ripping out and replaced with new.

Good idea

What I asked for was:
Kitchen sockets on their own
Kitchen oven on it's own
Kitchen hob on it's own
If possible lights on their own and split so as not using all energy at the same time.
Agreed to new 15 way consumer unit, as thought new rings

By the way only socket circuits may be 'rings'. Other circuits are called radials.

with a couple spare? Plus would have liked fuses labelled as: up stairs lights, upstairs sockets, downstairs lights, downstairs sockets, kitchen etc etc

Consumer unit circuits MUST be labelled

What I think I have is:
Kitchen lights as they were on existing downstairs lighting, will be split onto a 2 gang switch
Two wires which I assume are for the kitchen sockets, 3 on one wall and four on another
One thicker wire which I think will be for the double oven
As there was already a ring for an electric oven, I think this has been jointed into an old round junction box above the ceiling, and then brought down the wall for the hob.

MUST not have hidden junction boxes.

This troubles me, as the floor above cannot be lifted for access, and when a new ceiling goes in, there will be no access unless the ceiling is ripped down.
Would have thought a new feed would have come direct from the consumer unit (in kitchen understairs) through a tunnel chiselled into wall to a socket box, covered with trunking and finally plastered over.

Trunking not necessary, otherwise, yes.

It's the access point, along with jointing into old existing wiring possibly from the 60s that I find troublesome, regardless of whether it is in keeping with the current regulations or not?

It should be what you asked for but hidden joints are not good.

I could be totally wrong here (not an electrician) but I would have expected a new consumer unit, to have run two new feeds one each for oven, one for hob,

Not necessarily, depends on rating of appliances and cable

another two new feeds for sockets on each wall.

If that's what you asked for.

Then if the lights were going solo, another new feed for the lights, five new wires of different thickness. Am I wrong??

You could be wrong - one cable could supply all the lights in the kitchen, you just need two switches.

Hope that helps.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

igiveitup.
If the electrician is fitting a new consumer unit and new circuits to that, the new circuits should not have junction box joints that are not easily accessible.
By the way you have described the work, it sounds like this at a stage that investigation can still be done without too much trouble, ie lifting the floorboards where this joint could be, I would take a look.
If you have agreed on new circuits, that is what you want new not additional to old.
The configuration of the circuits could vary, but you have had suggestion on previous post by people in the trade, on what most of your options are.
There are no hard set rules, to the set up you could have, providing they comply to the relevant regulations.

I would expect:

Kitchen lights on downstairs circuit, with rest of downstairs lights.

Induction hob on it's own radial circuit

Oven on it's own circuit. This is not a must have, as many are rated so they can plug in to a standard domestic radial or ring final circuits, but I would prefer to have a separate circuit, in case one day you wish to have a higher rated oven and then the provisions are already in place.

Then you need socket outlets for kitchen appliances, this could well depend on what the demands on the kitchen are. If your kitchen will be housing all the usual domestic appliances, such as fridge/freezer, washing machine, dishwasher, tumble drier plus toaster, microwave, kettle, food blenders etc...
I would consider having the loads split and having another two circuits, also consideration of whether to have the freezer on circuit of it's own could be wise.

So ignoring the lighting circuit, you could well end up with 5 additional power circuits in the kitchen, this would of course depend on the load demand that your kitchen requires to be protected, as you could quite easily have one circuit covering all below and above work top appliances, with the exception of the induction hob.

 

[igiveitup]

Thank you very very much for your input, knowledgeable advice and much needed help.
The junction box will be hidden and I have raised my uncertainties regarding this, told its the way it was originally? The old cable going into the junction box was the original main oven/cooker point for the kitchen which was on it's own, it is to be used for the induction hob.

My concerns were if this had been split to feed the double oven on the other side of kitchen?
It is at the stage whereby corrections could still be made, and I'm seriously thinking of pursuing this.
I would take photo's, but unsure of how to add them to the forum?

A picture can speak a thousand words far more clearly than I can. The new to old junction is troubling me, along with a couple of other niggles. Perhap's I have used incorrect wording as regards correct electrical terminology but I appreciate everyones help in deciphering it!

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

To show a photo you must first upload it from your PC.
If you look at the top of this screen you will see the menu headings;
Welcome : How to : @home : Wiki Forum : Shop
below that is a sub menu which is mainly your personal stuff:
My Home : My Profile : Friends : Images(clicking on this) this will take you to my albums, where you can create a new album.
You can then give your album a name and description if you wish. Add an Image, Click choose a file this will take you to your files, choose the image from the location it is and the file name, then this can be uploaded to your album folder.
Once it is there, when ever you feel the need to post an image.
Click the show my images icon to the just below and to the left of the spell check button, go to the album the image is in, click on the image and it should be on your page.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Or you can install the ImageShack toolbar, and just drag the image filename from the camera into the post....

 

[igiveitup]

Thank you for instructions regarding download of pictures onto site, appreciate your help and will attempt it later this evening. Having taken down more of the ceiling to view, the length of new wire in wall for the hob has been junctioned into old box and old wiring above ceiling height. the old wiring is loosely above the ceiling (not in the joists) and then junctioned into another brown box again, that's two old brown junction boxes with old wire with no easy access. I don't think this is correct?

In keeping with new regulations, should new cooker wire be connected to old and jointed into old brown boxes with no access?

A new fixed floor has gone into the bathroom as there had been leaks prior to me, and the kitchen ceiling will also be new and fixed when it goes in.

The whole job is at first fix level and I feel could still be changed prior to the new ceiling being fixed.

The lights are also into a junction box with what look's like insulation tape around the old wire?

 

[igiveitup]

Hello,

I have managed (with your help) to get some photo's from the pc onto a my album. Could you advise how to get them to show for anyone to pass comment on please?

Thanks