Help - How can I hide my boiler?

[Dan Robinson]

children could be playing nearby,

So now you care about children?

PS, my own 24 years old boiler has never discharged any boiling hot water from its PRV, unless I overfilled it, or if EV had an internal le

Well in that case let's all ignore the rules and cap off these pointless safety devices? After all.... Yours has never been a problem.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

yes i have always cared for children, who can't speak for themselves, and you will be surprised how much I donate towards such needy, helpless, poor and deprived children, world wide including our own in UK, as well as I do speak for animals too, as they don't have a voice, over a 11 million dogs will be brutely killed in a Yulin Dog Meat Festival in GuangXi China, I speak for those who can't.

As for capping off my PRV, I more than happy to do that, my boiler just ticks over at 40c - 50c flow temperature 24/7 nonstop each years from October till end of April. In its 24 year history, its PRV has never ever discharged boiling hot water only ever dripped at best when about 5 years back its EV developed an internal leak, I fitted an external EV and has not required topping up much more than once or twice since then, and best of all the rest of my heating was installed in 1975, still the same rads, never ever power flushed, no rust and corrosion inhibitors added, pure water, no sludge problems, no rust in rads, that speaks for itself. I know it will be very hard for you to comprehend how this can be achieved!

 

[Dan Robinson]

know it will be very hard for you to comprehend how this can be achieved

Not really. It's hardly rocket science.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Good, so we have come to some understanding, and of course, it may have just been pure luck, I swear on my life, what I said is true, who knows having said this i awake up tomorrow and one of my now 42 year old rad starts to leak, I will keep my fingers crossed. Someone did mention on here a while back that if I am running my boiler at such a low flow temperature there may be a risk of vapors condensing, and cause corrosion to internal parts of the flue, again I confirmed my boiler is not a condensing boiler, even when running the flow at 35-40c in not too cold weather, the boiler simply modulates the flames to minimum and the comes on for roughly 10 seconds on and then remain off for about 90 seconds, pump keeps running 24/7, still the original vaillant pump.
So no fear there for condensation, as the flue temperature is still way beyond dew point and has not been less than 90c but usually around 120c when flames are lowest.

 

[hard-work]

As for capping off my PRV, I more than happy to do that

Mike, don't even think of doing that. If the PRV does not operate, the back up is the Expansion vessel. That will blow. And when that happens that is messy.

Have a look in the bottoms of the radiators and see if there is any sludge. It collects in the radiators as the flow slows when entering the radiator from the pipe.

 

[hard-work]

This installation is all too typical these days. In London the quality of workmanship is generally appalling. The city is a cowboy's dream. Bring back proper apprenticeship schemes, nurturing kids from a young age on how to do it right. They will have it etched into their brains and always take the professional route, sneering those who take the quick cowboy route.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Mike, don't even think of doing that. If the PRV does not operate, the back up is the Expansion vessel. That will blow. And when that happens that is messy.

Have a look in the bottoms of the radiators and see if there is any sludge. It collects in the radiators as the flow slows when entering the radiator from the pipe.

Indeed a very sound advise, not that I was actually going to do it, someone winds me then I have to wind back, indeed the pressure acting on the EV crimped edges would be tremendous, and sure it won't be less than an explosion! and yes I am aware any sludge would accumulate at the bottom of rads, the less the rads are disturbed the better it is for sludge remaining there. Thanks for all your helpful advice, it certainly helps far more than sarcasm does. Diplomacy can achieve far greater results than wars, even on forums like these.

So sure, I am in Harlow next week and will check what if any slope has been catered for on that flue, and I will definitely question my installer why he did not cater for this requirement if he does boiler and CH installations.

 

[ryanwatson]

Ryan ( OP ) if you are still around.

It would be nice to see the flue from the outside please!

Tony

Its the one photo I don't have. It's a rental property that's coming to an end - so I'm back there in a couple weeks to sort this all out. (planning ahead at the moment)

Took one other close up though, although everyone know now what it looks like. I'll follow up with some photos once I've sealed. There are some great suggestions/ideas here.

Outside it's just a single pipe that runs down into the drain with some filler around the hole. Nothing too exciting.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Outside it's just a single pipe that runs down into the drain with some filler around the hole. Nothing too exciting.

Its the distance from the edge of the flue to the edge of the window people are getting exercised about.

 

[John D v2.0]

It's a bit concerning you think this discussion is some kind of battle. Unless you understand more than the people who made the safety rules, I'm sure they took into consideration the considerable aggregate cost of all the pressure relief valves and pipework which mostly sit around doing nothing, so to overrule them and suggest it can be capped off is pretty reckless.
I can only hope that when this thread comes in Google searches in future it's clear to anyone else how bad an idea that is!

Just in case
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3770

 

[Mikefromlondon]

It's a bit concerning you think this discussion is some kind of battle. Unless you understand more than the people who made the safety rules, I'm sure they took into consideration the considerable aggregate cost of all the pressure relief valves and pipework which mostly sit around doing nothing, so to overrule them and suggest it can be capped off is pretty reckless.
I can only hope that when this thread comes in Google searches in future it's clear to anyone else how bad an idea that is!

Just in case
http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=3770

Equally reckless is the manners in which one conducts this so called " a discussion" that turns it into an ugly and a reckless debate.

So if one was being genuinely helpful and concerned about safety issues, like the issues in one in my picture I posted, where someone noted the flue pipe to him didn't appear to look "right", he either knew what might be wrong with it, but could not say it as he may not be a qualified gas safe engineer to comment or he feared being ridiculed! so he simply left his comments for others to comment on, he simply said "Is the flue in Mike from London's £3500 installation correct apart from being unsightly?"


so someone comes along and says "No" (meaning yes there is a problem) without explaining why. This is not a helpful advice or is it? It left me guessing as to why? I am not an RGI.

and then following on from there, it turns into a nasty sarcasm and insults, where I was called an Idiot and I reported this offence, so this turned into a nasty debate where

another picture I posted was quoted that had some potential problems, again the problems were not pointed out by so called helpful advisors on DIYnot forums, instead what followed was a more sarcasm and abuse, where you also joined in John, without giving any good reasons as to what is the potential problem with that installation, leaving me again to guess what may be the problem. I knew it was not usual for PRV discharge pipe terminating into a washing machine drain pipe, but I thought nothing of it other than this must also be an alternative acceptable method, and I never asked my installer if that was right.

So now, instead of pointing out the exact nature of problem or advising me how to correct that problem, I was called an Idiot, and when I tried to guess the possible breach that could cause a potential problem, you went about water gushing out at 120c at 3 bars, I have yet to see any combi boiler gushing out water at that ferocious rate, and gave you my logical reasons why this is highly unlikely to happen on a combi boiler (due to safety cut out devices such as overheat sensors and switches) and what its consequences may be on my particular installation, not prove me wrong by quoting links to previous hazardous situations where a combi boiler was not involved but a system boiler and hot water storage tank that went wrong.

So this person who insulted me earlier then commented to my comments where i said that my boiler of 24 years age has been into service and has never ever discharged any excess boiling hot water pressure unless I overfilled it to begin with, and when once its EV had an internal leak, it dripped from PRV as there was no room for water to expand, and yes it dripped not gushed out, as the heat builds up slowly, to which he replied "Well in that case let's all ignore the rules and cap off these pointless safety devices? After all.... Yours has never been a problem. So this is not helpful but sarcasm.

So John, where did I even suggest that we can do away with PRVs? Please don't extend this pointless debate. I have never advocated blocking off PRVs. In fact I would go one better and fit another as a back up just in case one seized up.

So please before you accuse me of wrong doing, have a look at the attitude of some advisors on here who not only are useless at offering any sensible advice but also use sarcasm and insulting words that leads to such arguments and meaningless discussions.

1.Why not just offer good, safe and solid advice like in my case one could say that flue is not correctly slopped and should have slopped towards the boiler.
2. That PRV discharge pipe should not have been terminated into a common drain point where condensate drain and washing a machine outlet is also connected and if possible give your reasons to back up the argument and highlight potential problems. This is more helpful to everyone, and a learning curve for many.
(I believe knowledge and experience should be shared )

I am pretty sure this gas safe company installer would have looked into all this and then decided he could take this route safely, he would have considered all the circumstances of a PRV discharging excess pressure into a common point that also drains condensate and washing machine outlet and any issues associated with blocked drains would have surely crossed his mind.
May be he ruled out the coincidence of a boiler going drastically wrong and having to discharge boiling hot water at 120C and jet of steaming hot water whilst the drains may be blocked at the same time, perhaps if you debate further onto this, it may actually unblock the blocked drain (Steaming hot water under pressure! ) ( perhaps I am being a little sarcastic here too, my apologies for that) what other consequences are there???? perhaps steam may start discharging from the washing machine door, and soap drawers? or perhaps I don't know what else, i already mentioned the pressure could enter condensate trap and enter the boiler's combustion chamber, by which time the boiler would have been knackered any way, so please tell me if you know what other reason is there that this arrangement is not acceptable apart from not being normal, how would they discharge PRV on 3 or more story high flats or buildings having own boilers? I will welcome your comments, please no sarcasm.

What I did was just tidy up, I did not carry out the original installation, so fortunately someone pointed a potential problem with the flue slope, but he was not too sure so he asked, and the replies that came were meaningless, unless one also explained why?

So you came into this ugly debate that had nothing to do with the title of this thread, we debated about how often does a PRV discharges its content?

You even admitted in your above post I quote "I'm sure they took into consideration the considerable aggregate cost of all the pressure relief valves and pipework which mostly sit around doing nothing, so in the debate I argued that my own boiler now 24 years into service has never discharged any content, and let us assume if it did, could you tell me the worst case consequences of that PRV discharging into a common drain?

I have nothing against you and have always respected your views, sarcasm always attracts sarcastic remarks, did i suggest anywhere that you can safely block off PRV, unless said so in a sarcasm to a sarcastic comments.

I know perfectly well the Prime function of a PRV, and that it should never be blocked off. ( not only me, most people do )

And I do appreciate that some good came out of my posting pictures, as it highlighted potential issues, but still no one had the guts to say to me directly what the exact issues were and why and a possible solution. Only that I managed to guess logically what the issues might be, I was offered no real help but plenty of sarcasm, now that I have been made aware though indirectly through sarcasm, with great difficulty, to these potential problems, i will be asking my installer to look into it and suggest a possible safe solution in the name of safety, withholding safety information is a CRIME.

(Sorry for the long rant and having to defend myself against aggression!)

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Incidentally in 1989, I was asked to develop an electronic controller for an Autoclave for dentist market for sterilizing dental equipment, all the metal work was done by others, my job was to design a circuit that had inputs form a temperature sensor, that timed the sterilising cycle once it had reached the 135c at around 30psi or 2 bars of saturated steam, it also had air purge valve and a safety PRV just in case electronics failed, if I can recall, there was a door closed push switch such that the circuit would only start when the door was shut but not necessary locked, so I pointed to the interested parties that I was not happy with this arrangement and the door closed switch had to be moved to an interlock mechanism, whereby the autoclave would only start when the interlock was fully engaged and not on a partial lock, the mechanism catered for door not able to open under mechanical force by relying on pressure itself, provided it was fully locked, so if there was any pressure the door would not open no matter how much force one exerted on the door knob, but the weak point was that the lock could be partially locked and the autoclave could be switched on, danger of someone able to open it under pressure if used a great force on the knob, but my suggestion was not taken seriously as that would mean modifying the design and it would add more to the cost of manufacture. however but I emphasised on safety first. I could imagine a young nurse getting scalded by boiling hot water spewing out of it if opened by force or lock not fully latched on and sliding off under great force.

so i suggested using an electric fail safe solinoid interlock, as well as mechanical interlock, to convince them, I rigged an autoclave where I just managed to shut the door and partly latching it on the tip of the latch, where under pressure it could give in and open under great pressure, it had not interlocking, an interlock would ensure that the safety door switch would only trip in when the interlock was on (fully locked) so I rigged up one in a disused field nearby, long extension lead and asked the interested parties to witness my fears from behind the safety of glass doors of our premises, my fear was that where someone could shut the door and not fully lock it and switched on the autoclave, the circuit would start, after a few minutes the experiment went my way, the door burst open under pressure and boiling hot water spewed out of it for some yards, the parties concerned were stunned and decided to implement my safety suggestion. I then incorporated a solenoid for the interlock that would only release the mechanical interlock if the power was on and all signals from temperature sensors were indicating safe to open temperature under 50c.

I then went one step further, to cover up for failed temperature sensors, they wanted to use one single sensor and rely on PRV against malfunctioning sensor that would otrherwise allow the electric element and the triac control to continue to heat past 135c and past 2 bars, overheaing and steam pressure may exceed the designed limit of door hinges and seals and interlocking, as well as the pressure vessel made of staineless steel itself, so I incorporated two temperature sensors whereby the electronics would monitor both temperature sensors separately as well as compare their outputs relative to each other and within a given time period both sensors must produce about the same electrical signal, if assuming during a sterilising cycle, one sensor is detected not behaving in the same manner as the other, the sterilising cycle would complete, relying on the one good sensor, to continue to sterilise but then there after it would not restart another cycle on one failed sensor, and abort any further attempts, with a fault warning light coming on, from then on any subsequent operation is terminated with this fault light and a buzzer until it gets looked at.

So to tell me about dangers of not having PRV and critical sensors going faulty, save your breath.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Yawn.

 

[John D v2.0]

Mike you have to take this forum for what it is, half the members are nice, half are pedantic, half are knowledgeable, and half are bored and online all day.
Turn on your sarcasm filter and get what you can.

Regarding my posts I didn't mean to be rude, just stick to the facts so maybe sounds terse. If I go into great detail in posts people miss the point so I just stick to a couple of clear points per post max.

For the record, I skipped a load of the posts probably due to augment going on and then this one was the one that caught my eye. I didn't know you were being sarcastic and I just wanted to correct for the record for future members.

As for capping off my PRV, I more than happy to do that, my boiler just ticks over at 40c - 50c flow temperature 24/7 nonstop each years from October till end of April. In its 24 year history, its PRV has never ever discharged boiling hot water only ever dripped at best when about 5 years back its EV developed an internal leak, I fitted an external EV and has not required topping up much more than once or twice since then, and best of all the rest of my heating was installed in 1975, still the same rads, never ever power flushed, no rust and corrosion inhibitors added, pure water, no sludge problems, no rust in rads, that speaks for itself. I know it will be very hard for you to comprehend how this can be achieved!