Help with dispute...

[bhwh]

Hi

I hope this is the right/ok place to ask for help with this.

Last October we used a firm to carry out work to our property: install new gas cooker and move a boiler further into the understairs cupboard.

I am now in a dispute with the firm who are requesting full settlement of the outstanding invoice. However, there are several aspects of the work that were either not completed or not done to a good standard.

- boiler was re-filled with fresh water with no inhibitor
- earth bonding from the CU was not done
- external flue has been positioned close to 2 windows so that the steam either enters the open windows or steams them up when shut (the external flue was previously fitted by British Gas who ran the pipe all the way to the end of the house, unsightly but kept the steam away from us and neighbours)
- the boiler blowout pipe is fitted using a plastic join which allows it to swivel 360 degrees (again, BG had originally fitted this using a hooked copper pipe)
- the motar used to fill the flue was not filled correctly and has now cracked badly
- all old external fittings were just left hanging off the external wall
- new electric cabling was left without conduit and just hangs of the internal wall
- this week we found a gas leak on the new tail pipe leading to cooker. I phoned the firm and them came out quickly to replace but have now added an additional charge/invoice for this!

The engineer told me on completion that the firm would send out an engineer to complete some of this work (inhibitor, conduit, earth bonding) but this never happened. Instead, they are requesting full payment before they finish off the work, despite a polite email and telephone call from me.

I have now written a letter enclosing a cheque for half the outstanding amount.

My main question for you guys is this: the lack of inhibitor is a major concern to me. The boiler is a modern condenser combi type but has now been running for several months without inhibitor. Is this going to require a flush out? Should I now be requesting this from the firm who carried out the work? I don't have the money to ask another engineer to do it...but it could be causing damage to the system?

I'm just looking for any advice on this matter.

Many thanks

 

[powell30]

I doubt it needs flushing yet but a cleaning solution for a day or two and reinhibit will sort it.

Now, if your really unhappy get a quote to have the work put right (2 really), copy the firm in on the quotes and say you will use the money still owed to them to get the work corrected UNLESS they arrange to come out and resolve it themselves....

 

[bhwh]

That's very helpful - thank you.

Sounds like a very reasonable way forward.

I should have asked this in the original post but the one other problem which strikes me as a bigger job/problem than the rest, is the positioning of the flue. Any thoughts on this? Surely steam entering the bedroom window is a big no no?

 

[powell30]

It's water vapour not steam. As long as the minimum requirements ref distancing are met it is not an issue and one i guess is due to wind conditions. Without seeing the termination i can't say. There are plume management kits but was this discussed when you asked for a quote? If not i doubt it is going to be done gratis and you may have to pay more. Try to keep it amicable but from what you have described it sounds a 90% finished job.

What were you quoted?

 

[Agile]

Inhibitor is a rather British thing.

Most of Europe and particularly Germany dont normally use it. Instead they get the system properly cleaned first. As a sealed system there is no reason why it should get dirty. I have seen 20 year old open systems which are totally clean. A three year old system I saw two weeks ago had such clean water that I drunk a little of it in front of the customer but its not often I would do that.

The flue does emit the products of combustion as thats its purpose. As long as its at least 300 mm away from any opening window it meets the requirements. Certain wind conditions can cause the plume to drift towards windows and very rarely a little condensation may be formed on the window. But I dont expect you complain about water droplets on your windows when its raining!

Can you post photos of the things you are unhappy with?

Tony

 

[bhwh]

Ok - thanks again. Really good to get your opinions.

Lets face it - the majority of problems I've listed are small things that could easily be put right. The two that concern me are inhibitor and flue.

Inhibitor - I hear what you say about it not neccesarily being that important. However, we do live in an area with very hard water (not sure if this is related or not? but things do 'fur' up easily). A local builder friend of mine has said that it is a very basic error to not use inhibitor.

Flue - here is a picture of the position. You can see the window that the plume enters - but it is certainly more than 300mm away. What strikes me as odd, is that when the original boiler/flue was installed by BG, they ran the pipe all the way to the end of the house to keep it away. Why have the firm changed this when the boiler was only moved by a couple of feet?

 

[njk]

The flue looks to be fitted up to standard, so if you want it moved, I will expect you will have to pay extra for it. Even if they just changed the boiler, they can not use the same flue and unless you ask for it to be diverted, they are likely to to allow for only doing it like they did.

The hardness of the water is not going change with the inhibitor. You fill the system ones, and unless you have a leak or do more work, it is the same water you will use until you do either. Since you are concerned about it, I would recommend you add it now to give you some peace of mind. You don't have to clean the system again, as long as they cleaned it before changing the boiler, it will only be clean water.

Lolli

 

[bhwh]

Sorry - what I didn't make clear is that the exit position of the flue on the external wall has not changed at all. In other words, the flue goes from interior to exterior at the same position. So why alter the length of the external flue so drastically? Especially when it nows causes problems that didn't exist before.

Thanks for the info re: inhibitor/hard water.

 

[tryitandsee]

but has now been running for several months without inhibitor

What's the time frame of this dispute between you.

several months without final payment may have caused some bad feelings. especially as you are holding half back even now. presumably you feel this half will pay for the outstanding items, so it could be rather too much to be have been holding back in the first place.

I'm not sure about this point, but is it not the procedure to have the gas pressure test carried out at the beginning and end of gas works. This test is to make sure the gas was ok at the start of works, then carried out again at finish to confirm gas is still sound. Did they give you any paper work to prove this was done, if not, then in my opinion they would have no case against you.

A leak some months later could be a problem to prove, however a reputable firm would probably not quibble, just for the sake of their own reputation.

 

[Agile]

To me these are very minor probems with a very low cost to change if any change is indeed needed.

Whilst you have not put a figure on the amount held back it sounds like hundreds rather than tens.

Tony

 

[mickyg]

A three year old system I saw two weeks ago had such clean water that I drunk a little of it in front of the customer but its not often I would do that.

That explains alot

 

[bhwh]

Yes - the amount I'm holding back is in the hundreds not tens.

I don't have the knowledge required to know how much it will cost to put right (although may go down the route of obtaining a quote as suggested) so the money I'm holding back I suppose isn't really intended to reflect the cost of finishing. It's more a case of not paying until the job's finished. Is that not reasonable? In the past 5 years I've spent over £20k on building work on this house and not had to pay the builder in full until the work was completed. Infact, from memory I think we hadd a similar arrangement whereby I paid half as the work reached an intermediate stage.

With regards holding payment back causing bad feelings, it was the engineer who promised somebody would be back 'within days' to complete the job. That never happened - they finished the job last October!

I'm not sure I understand 'tryitandsee' about the gas testing. But, no, we have no certificates or paperwork as yet.