Hierarchy of Carpenters

[kettlemanjim]

What's the difference between a "Bench joiner", "Joiner", "Carpenter" and "Site Carpenter" Is there still a hierarchy of skills in general skilled word-work or are these subcategories no longer relevant? What type of carpenter can make and fit spiral staircases, sash windows and fitted furniture such as bedroom wardrobes? What type of carpenter would you advertise for to do shuttering work or to do roofing

 

[danechip]

Sorry, I don't have the time to explain all of that in one go.

Lets go backwards.

Roof joiner.

Carpenter is the Master of all wood.

Sash windows is sort of a specialist window man.

Bench Joiner makes Ikea ****e before you do.

Joiner is sort of kitchen fitter and door hanger.

Site carpenter would be an old man with a bad and fixes the phuckups, sort of a snagging engineer.

We don't have carpenters on the internet, they are too busy working, the rest are cowboy ChUNTS.

 

[gonch69]

It's a north south thing called joiners more commonly up north carpenter Dan south
But either should be able to do all you require some specialise in certain areas like roofing or second fixing but as a carpenter /joiner you should be able to do the lot plus a bench joiner works in a joinery shop not making Ikea furniture but joinery work like windows stairs and bespoke items

 

[foxhole]

Better to describe the work to be undertaken than worry about a specific job title.
Always considered bench joiner to work in house and produce all types of woodwork including high end made to measure bespoke stuff.Guess the terms mean different things to different people.I would class joiner, shuttering as simple assembly work.Carpenter a more skilled job but again seem to vary by skill level.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

We don't have carpenters on the internet, they are too busy working, the rest are cowboy ChUNTS.

Ahh, isn't that what a proper, traditionally-time served carpenter and joiner might call "price work cowboys"? You know the sort - can't be arsed to do the job properly and cut corners all over the place to make a quick buck (and never mind the squeaky chipboard floors). Would it be true to say that the same sort of person can't be bothered to help his fellow man, either, because there's no money in it, I wonder?

Site carpenter would be an old man with a bad and fixes the phuckups, sort of a snagging engineer.

A snagging joiner (generally on big sites only) might well be an old man with a gammy leg. He does indeed goes round fixing the phuckups visited on the world, most often by the "price work cowboys" who are all too busy to do it right in the first place. He generally posseses a remarkable wide vocabulary of expletives as a result of his work

A site carpenter, on the other hand tends to do all the odds and sods jobs on site, anything from putting up hoardings, to building safety fences, patching floors, doing small shuttering works, erecting toilet cubicles and generally fitting out site facilities, etc. He will also do jobs that the joinery contractor won't or hasn"t done - A sort of "gofer". At the end of the job he might well turn into a snagging joiner, providing his vocabulary is big enough, that is

 

[kettlemanjim]

It's a north south thing called joiners more commonly up north carpenter Dan south But either should be able to do all you require some specialise in certain areas like roofing or second fixing but as a carpenter /joiner you should be able to do the lot plus a bench joiner works in a joinery shop not making Ikea furniture but joinery work like windows stairs and bespoke items

So the word "Carpenter" and "Joiner" can generally be used interchangeably and roughly meaning a person who has served a four year apprenticeship and got a city and guilds qualification? Is a "bench joiner" who works indoors making sash windows, spiral staircases, staircases, bespoke doors, bedroom wardrobes etc considered necessary to have a higher level of skill?

A snagging joiner (generally on big sites only) might well be an old man with a gammy leg. He does indeed goes round fixing the phuckups visited on the world, most often by the "price work cowboys" who are all too busy to do it right in the first place. He generally posseses a remarkable wide vocabulary of expletives as a result of his work

Is this similar to a "snagging" builder who is a specialist with an advanced level of multiple skills that can get to the bottom of any problem and therefore by the same token wouldn't a snagging joiner be similarly highly skilled? (Snaggers could be seen as being the special forces/commando unit of a building company)

A site carpenter, on the other hand tends to do all the odds and sods jobs on site, anything from putting up hoardings, to building safety fences, patching floors, doing small shuttering works, erecting toilet cubicles and generally fitting out site facilities, etc. He will also do jobs that the joinery contractor won't or hasn't done - A sort of "gofer". At the end of the job he might well turn into a snagging joiner, providing his vocabulary is big enough, that is

Would someone normally be required to have served an apprenticeship to be a site carpenter? I've heard people refer to as a "shuttering" carpenter and the terms can probably be used interchangeably

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Shuttering carpenters are really a separate, specialised trade these days (and have their own CSCS card). They deal with making up timber and plywood shuttering (forms) to cast concrete structures on-site. These days there are also lots of metal shuttering systems as well ("pans") which are used to cast walls rather than the traditional timber forms because they are far faster. Many shuttering carpenters have a working k knowledge of reinforcement systems (such as rebar). Traditionally-trained carpenters should have done at least some small shuttering jobs on the course of their training and working life but wouldn't necessarily have the knowledge or ability to work.on moveable wall shuttering systems, such as those you see being used on multi storey buildings. A site carpenter might well.spend part of his time doing small shuttering jobs such as casting pad stones on-site (to a given level), casting concrete steps in situ, making up small forms for the concreters, etc

Any site joiner/carpenter would be required to do some form of apprenticeship in order to be awarded a City & Guilds qualification and/or an NVQ. Proof of status is generally the possession of a CSCS card. The progression used to be 4 years or so (3 years or less these days) as an apprentice doing C&G, then several years as an "improver" before you were considered to be a proper chippy.

When looking for a snagged you are often better looking for an older guy who doesn't want to be going hell for leather doing boring, repetitive price work all the time (we all get there some time). Older often means wider experience, but not always

 

[kettlemanjim]

Any site joiner/carpenter would be required to do some form of apprenticeship in order to be awarded a City & Guilds qualification and/or an NVQ. Proof of status is generally the possession of a CSCS card. The progression used to be 4 years or so (3 years or less these days) as an apprentice doing C&G, then several years as an "improver" before you were considered to be a proper chippy.

Thanks for the explanation! I remember seeing plenty of job adverts asking for "Improver wanted" but don't know if the terminology is still used/relevant? I'm presuming with carpenters a general city and guilds level 3 or NVQ level 3 would be the result of a 3 year apprenticeship. I recall people talking about apprenticeships that would take five years.

 

[^woody^]

You can pick any carpenter/ joiner and the hierarchy is - brilliant, good, OK, crap, complete shiite.

On the advert just put "Can you make a spiral staircase?" or "Can you make built in furniture from scratch?" or suchlike. That will weed them out.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I'm presuming with carpenters a general city and guilds level 3 or NVQ level 3 would be the result of a 3 year apprenticeship. I recall people talking about apprenticeships that would take five years.

In C&G days you generally were classed as a "Carpenter and Joiner" and did a 4 or 5 year apprenticeship. This was because you learned about using machinery, bench joinery and site work - so a wide range of skills were acquired. NVQ qualifications, on the other hand, are just in one subject, e.g. site carpentry, bench joinery, etc which means that apprenticeships can be shorter.

"Improver" is still relevant. Carpentry and joinery are still very much practical skills and whilst an apprenticeship gives you the basics, they are just the basics, and more time is needed to gain practical knowledge, build muscle memory and put together a tool kit

 

[johnny2007]

Never attended any carpentry school.
No qualifications whatsoever.
I worked as an apprentice for the first years of my career where i learned most of the tricks, the rest through trial and error.
They always called me a carpenter and I went along with it.
Nobody ever asked me for university paperwork.
Many asked me if I could make tea.
And I spent most of my life fixing shyt left by "certified carpenters" with qualifications, certificates and all sort of other boll@x.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Many asked me if I could make tea.

Believe me when I tell you that is a most desireable qualification.....

I spent most of my life fixing shyt left by "certified carpenters" with qualifications, certificates and all sort of other boll@x.

Maybe they were "cowboy ChUNTS" or "pricework monkeys"?

The thing I'd say in favour of having "qualifications, certificates and all sort of other boll@x" is that in theory if you have them you should be better placed to take on some of the more complicated tasks (such as installing a double kite winder staircase, refurbishing a vertical sliding sash window, splice repairing a damaged rafter, etc) because you have learned about them at college (followed up with some practical application). You just can't guarantee that you'll pick up enough of the trade the way you did (from working with "semis" I'd say some do,many don't). There's also the indisputable fact that it has become nigh on possible to get onto larger sites in recent years without the all important trade CSCS card, a card which depends on you having obtained appropriate NVQ or C&G qualifications. That said a problem with NVQs is that they often appear to mean "not very qualified" - at least for some of the gold-carded clots I've worked under. And as for the guy who had a degree in cabinetmaking.... (well, I'm sure his mother loved him)

 

[johnny2007]

There's also the indisputable fact that it has become nigh on possible to get onto larger sites in recent years without the all important trade CSCS card, a card which depends on you having obtained appropriate NVQ or C&G qualifications.

Never obtained one myself and never been denied access to a site.
In fact, I was given one to carry in my pocket when I did work on local authority buildings.
Didn't pay for it, didn't sit any exams.
They just took a picture and then gave me the card to carry with me.
Total boll@x red tape.
In that job we were fixing generally whatever was needed.
Then they moved us to check woodwork done by the "professionals".
That's when it slowed down and became a constant swearing.
How can a professional carpenter not realise that he's cutting 45 degree angles at 40???
On dozens of door architraves, not one cut, dozens.
Joke!

 

[Notch7]

A joiner....joins wood. It means in a workshop.
joinery tends to mean windows, doors, stairs, shop-fitting as distinct from cabinetry.

Carpentry means sitework and is generally broken into first fix and second fix:

First fix
Pitching roofs
Studwork
Concrete formwork
Door linings

Second Fix
Skirting
Architrave
Internal doors
Installing cabinet work


Sadly for you, not many carpenters cover first fix, second fix, cabinet fitting, kitchens, window and door install, sash window repairs.

 

[Notch7]

I wouldn't advertise if it was me.

You want some specialist joinery like fitted wardrobes, sash windows etc.l..go and talk to your local joinery shop, say what you want and ask for a recommendation for a good site carpenter.

Or if there are any big extensions going up near where you live....call in and ask the builder. Builders know good tradesmen.

Or go and ask your local timber merchant.

Whatever you do, do not look on the internet at: rated.....checka.....mycowboybuilder....trade