Hierarchy of Carpenters

I do first and second fix, cabinets, carving, lathe work (although I haven't touched one in 15 years), kitchens, wood flooring and framing.
Never been keen on windows and never touched a sash window.
My favourite profitable job is internal doors.
Most enjoyable is design and build kitchens.
They call me a c@nt...
And someone calls me a carpenter :ROFLMAO:
 
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I do first and second fix, cabinets, carving, lathe work (although I haven't touched one in 15 years), kitchens, wood flooring and framing.
Never been keen on windows and never touched a sash window.
My favourite profitable job is internal doors.
Most enjoyable is design and build kitchens.
They call me a c@nt...
And someone calls me a carpenter :ROFLMAO:
 
You can pick any carpenter/ joiner and the hierarchy is - brilliant, good, OK, crap, complete shiite. On the advert just put "Can you make a spiral staircase?" or "Can you make built in furniture from scratch?" or suchlike. That will weed them out.
I think a wooden spiral staircase is considered one of the most difficult things to make. Wasn't a wheelwright considered one of the most skilled types of joiner
 
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I wouldn't advertise if it was me. Whatever you do, do not look on the internet at: rated.....checka.....mycowboybuilder....trade
I've heard this a lot.
 
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Historically wasn't a wheelwright considered one of the most skilled and experienced experts in joinery and carpentry.
I would not think so. A shipwright comes to mind or if we are going back a bit, I'd say any carpenter pre 1950's/pre power tools was a master carpenter.
 
Never obtained one myself and never been denied access to a site.
In fact, I was given one to carry in my pocket when I did work on local authority buildings.
Didn't pay for it, didn't sit any exams.
Just how long is it since you were on a big site? Or one run by a major contractor? I'd say probably not in the last 7 or 8 years, or even longer. As to getting a card for nothing, you may not have paid for it, but someone did. AFAIK the only card you might have got without some proofs of either of qualifications or experience at one time was a green labourer's (operative's) card. Even for that card you would (after the late 1990s) have needed to pass a health and safety test first - and since 2015 even to get a green card you have needed to do a 1 day basic health and safety course as well as pass the health and safety exam (which at operative/trades level is hardly onerous).

Tradesmen now need a minimum of a level 2 (blue) card - and to get that requires a trade appropriate NVQ, level 2. If you have someone letting you onto construction site without the necessary card or cards, then good luck to you if the HSE come calling or if you have an accident as amongst other things your (or your employer's) insurance may be void.

As to it all being a nonsense I can only disagree. Construction is one of the more dangerous occupations and having people walk on site without basic safety training is downright negligent. Any foreman or manager will tell you that

You almost seem to think that all trained chippies are stupid and that you, a self-taught "semi-skilled" person is better. Why? Whilst there are good and bad, grafters and skivers in every trade when someone comes to work for me with a card I at least know that they already have the trade basics, have a basic knowledge of site safety and should know how to use, say, a circular saw without cutting their arm off with it. How do you prove that to me without me needing to watch you like a hawk for several days at least? You simply can"t
 
Just how long is it since you were on a big site? Or one run by a major contractor? I'd say probably not in the last 7 or 8 years, or even longer. As to getting a card for nothing, you may not have paid for it, but someone did. AFAIK the only card you might have got without some proofs of either of qualifications or experience at one time was a green labourer's (operative's) card. Even for that card you would (after the late 1990s) have needed to pass a health and safety test first - and since 2015 even to get a green card you have needed to do a 1 day basic health and safety course as well as pass the health and safety exam (which at operative/trades level is hardly onerous).

Tradesmen now need a minimum of a level 2 (blue) card - and to get that requires a trade appropriate NVQ, level 2. If you have someone letting you onto construction site without the necessary card or cards, then good luck to you if the HSE come calling or if you have an accident as amongst other things your (or your employer's) insurance may be void.

As to it all being a nonsense I can only disagree. Construction is one of the more dangerous occupations and having people walk on site without basic safety training is downright negligent. Any foreman or manager will tell you that

You almost seem to think that all trained chippies are stupid and that you, a self-taught "semi-skilled" person is better. Why? Whilst there are good and bad, grafters and skivers in every trade when someone comes to work for me with a card I at least know that they already have the trade basics, have a basic knowledge of site safety and should know how to use, say, a circular saw without cutting their arm off with it. How do you prove that to me without me needing to watch you like a hawk for several days at least? You simply can"t
Well, that was 15 years ago when things were different and easier.
Regarding h&s, i've been correcting people all my life about their dangerous ways.
In fact, when h&s didn't exist (or better, nobody cared), i was spending days on safety with the young lads.
I've never done a job on an unsecured ladder without harness, can "professionals" claim that?
I've sat in classrooms for h&s training and knew all of it already, apart from the legislation to use to screw the employer when you get injured by your own negligence and stupidity.
I've never been injured on a job.
Circular saw... don't get me started on them.
I've seen "professionals" slice 4x2 one handed with the piece not clamped.
And me, the stupid ignorant diy chippy would either carry a portable table saw in the van or, get my arse on the road and go buy 2x2 instead of slicing 4x2.
But, to your standard, as long as someone has got a card (possibly obtained like me in those days, who knows?), then you trust them with your life.
That's why we hear so many bodge stories about "professionals" here on dyinot.com.
I never had to look for work because customers and foremen looked for me, that should tell you something.
 
I've never done a job on an unsecured ladder without harness, can "professionals" claim that?
Well, there's a rub - current thinking, backed by law, is that you should only ever use ladders for access and never to work from unless no safer method of access (e.g.scaffolding tower, cherry picker, scissor lift, etc) is feasible. Secondly, whilst ladders should be adequately secured, use of a harness on a ladder except in very special circumstances is also frowned upon. But then I doubt from what you say that you've ever written any RAMS.

I have heard guys talk about having heard it all before, but the reason that h&s stuff gets reiterated so often is that like anything else things do change over time. Being blase and saying "I've never been injured on a job" means very little if your knowledge of safe working is out of date, and you don't review your own approach and behaviour constantly. One of the most common things I've read on the 'net is what you said, often coupled with a further comment about safety being a matter of common sense. My experience of common sense is that it isn't that common at all!

But, to your standard, as long as someone has got a card (possibly obtained like me in those days, who knows?), then you trust them with your life.
You really do seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about formally trained people, I'd say. Someone coming on site with a CSCS card has demonstrated to an examining body that they have a defined minimum level of technical knowledge of their trade, as well as a minimum level of understanding in site safety. In other words as a charge hand or foreman I have a bench mark from which to start. Come to site without those and you could be a genius or know jack sh1t about the job or how to behave in a safe manner on site. How can I tell without spending a lot of time and effort? And like anyone in my position I watch new starters like a hawk to see if they are (a) competent and (b) safe. Once I am happy that they are both thing get a lot easier, at least for me

In the matter of training, what you say you've done is a fraction of what a trained carpenter should be able to do, possibly because your lack of training means you have never learned some of what are fundamentals. That means whilst you may be good swinging doors, you may be useless if you have to do other stuff because you have had no exposure to it. I notice you don't say that you've done stairs, roofs or joisting - and that you don't like windows - all staples in carpentry. So why should someone consider a semi-skilled man with no proofs over a trained man with all those useless bits of paper? That is what you are up against
 
Well, there's a rub - current thinking, backed by law, is that you should only ever use ladders for access and never to work from unless no safer method of access (e.g.scaffolding tower, cherry picker, scissor lift, etc) is feasible. Secondly, whilst ladders should be adequately secured, use of a harness on a ladder except in very special circumstances is also frowned upon. But then I doubt from what you say that you've ever written any RAMS.

I have heard guys talk about having heard it all before, but the reason that h&s stuff gets reiterated so often is that like anything else things do change over time. Being blase and saying "I've never been injured on a job" means very little if your knowledge of safe working is out of date, and you don't review your own approach and behaviour constantly. One of the most common things I've read on the 'net is what you said, often coupled with a further comment about safety being a matter of common sense. My experience of common sense is that it isn't that common at all!


You really do seem to have a bit of a chip on your shoulder about formally trained people, I'd say. Someone coming on site with a CSCS card has demonstrated to an examining body that they have a defined minimum level of technical knowledge of their trade, as well as a minimum level of understanding in site safety. In other words as a charge hand or foreman I have a bench mark from which to start. Come to site without those and you could be a genius or know jack sh1t about the job or how to behave in a safe manner on site. How can I tell without spending a lot of time and effort? And like anyone in my position I watch new starters like a hawk to see if they are (a) competent and (b) safe. Once I am happy that they are both thing get a lot easier, at least for me

In the matter of training, what you say you've done is a fraction of what a trained carpenter should be able to do, possibly because your lack of training means you have never learned some of what are fundamentals. That means whilst you may be good swinging doors, you may be useless if you have to do other stuff because you have had no exposure to it. I notice you don't say that you've done stairs, roofs or joisting - and that you don't like windows - all staples in carpentry. So why should someone consider a semi-skilled man with no proofs over a trained man with all those useless bits of paper? That is what you are up against
When you find one of your graduated who has always used a harness on ladders, scaffolding, roofs, etc, call me.
I see them everyday on major building sites.
Apart from my younger years when i was learning, I was never one to go and ask for work, people called me to offer work knowing my standards.
I have built all sorts of stairs, roofs, summer houses, children playgrounds, extensions, dormer conversions and much more.
In my days there was traffic outside my workshop and many times i had the door locked and a sign on the door: Closed: too busy.
Many of your graduated professionals used to come to me, get their stuff built by me and then just flog it or install it claiming it was their work.
Doesn't bother me.
Then, as said, as a semi-skilled diyer i was constantly called to sites to fix the mess left by your graduated professionals.
For a decade that became my main and very profitable income.
In fact, i had so many unstarted project that i gave them away to other semi-skilled diyers like me.
So overall, I corrected your graduated professionals in h&s, fixed their poor workmanship, taken down entire structures built by them, built cabinets, stairs and all sorts for them, trained them in carpentry, carving and joinery and finally being derided by them for not having a piece of paper to wipe my arse with.
Truth is that they will have to always duck and dive, join the cowboy builders trusted traders scheme to get work and never have repeat customers.
Of course this doesn't apply to all of them, i'm sure lots are very good, it's just that i've been unlucky to meet only a handful of them.
 
I'm not sure of the standard nowadays, but if the carpenter worked in pub fitting out up to say 1990, then he should be guaranteed to be a good 'un.

Best chippies I've known were about 20 old jamaican guys I was with back in the 80''s. Not one of them was qualified on paper, but they knew their stuff alright.
 
Likely hiring someone that I've not had the chance to meet before deciding to trial them or not
 
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