Hive Nightmare

[Calaban]

Can anyone please offer advice on a Hive single channel install..?

I have a Warmflow Utility 70 HE connected to a mechanical timer from the stone age, I dont know what it is. (pics attached) Power was hardwired to the timer from a non working switched spur. Outside in the boiler house the boiler and pump are plugged into a double socket and from the sockets 3 wires come in to the timer (2 black numbered 1&2 and an earth) there is also a 3rd black which has been either cut or broken but the timer and the heating work correctly so I assume it was cut. Its a simple on/off set up it heats the house and water at the same time.
I've fixed the switched spur and connected a single channel Hive receiver in every configuration I can think of but get nothing at the boiler. Hive lights up, connects with hub and receiver and shows green light when I use the manual heating on button.. Spent last night without heat so reconnected the old timer this morning works just fine, I havnt damaged anything but I dont know how to move forward..
I have connected the N&L from the spur.. Then tried the 2 wires from the boiler sockets to 2/3 2/4 and tried a jumper from L to 1 on the Hive..
These are pics of the timer I am removing along with a diagram of how its presently wired..
I'd be grateful for any help..

 

[winston1]

What is all that plus and minus?Those don’t exist with AC. I suggest you are out of your depth and call in an expert.

 

[Calaban]

Well thats simply what I was shown as positive and negative a long time ago and its stuck in my head.. N = - L = + I should have labeled N&L my bad..

 

[CBW]

Did you purchase the dual channel or single channel Hive?

 

[Calaban]

Single

 

[CBW]

So then, why are you using 4 which clearly states it’s unused?

L - L
N - N
Common from older one to common on Hive (1)
Switched from older one to switched on Hive (NO/heating on)

 

[stem]

In addition, you don't give any information about the type of heating system that you are trying to control with the Hive.

If the existing boiler heats both hot water (by natural / gravity circulation) and central heating (by pump) a single channel Hive will cause you a problem. When your house is warm and the Hive turns 'off' the central heating, the hot water will go 'off' also, which will probably produce enough hot water in the very cold weather. But, you may / may not get sufficient hot water in milder weather, and won't get any at all during hot weather.

If your system is like this, then it would be normal in such a case to have a dual channel Hive and connect the boiler to the Hot Water and the pump to the Central Heating. That way, the hot water can be set to be 'on' when the central heating isn't.

On the other hand if the boiler is just heating radiators and not any stored hot water, then a single channel Hive is OK. And it would also be OK if it was a fully pumped system with motorised valve/s and another device controlling the heating of the hot water.

 

[Calaban]

So then, why are you using 4 which clearly states it’s unused?

L - L
N - N
Common from older one to common on Hive (1)
Switched from older one to switched on Hive (NO/heating on)

I am using 2 and 3 . Again my bad I've become so frustrated with this my heads not straight when I posted.. which is why i installed the old timer again... I know 4 isnt used, I'll amend the post.. (thank you)
I've tried 1 and 3 & 1 and 2 I've even bridged L & 1 as I saw this worked for someone but all with the same result. I'm not a professional.. but as far as I can see (and please tell me if I am wrong) this is simply a switch (if you take the thermostat out of the equation)?
Im worried about blowing the circuit board so I plugged in a socket tester outside where the boiler is connected just to see whats happening.. and with connections to 1/3 or 1/2 there is no power.. unless I bridge L with 1.. But either way no boiler action.. at best I get a L&E reversal signal which
I know I havnt done..

 

[Calaban]

In addition, you don't give any information about the type of heating system that you are trying to control with the Hive.

If the existing boiler heats both hot water (by natural / gravity circulation) and central heating (by pump) a single channel Hive will cause you a problem. When your house is warm and the Hive turns 'off' the central heating, the hot water will go 'off' also, which will probably produce enough hot water in the very cold weather. But, you may / may not get sufficient hot water in milder weather, and won't get any at all during hot weather.

If your system is like this, then it would be normal in such a case to have a dual channel Hive and connect the boiler to the Hot Water and the pump to the Central Heating. That way, the hot water can be set to be 'on' when the central heating isn't.

On the other hand if the boiler is just heating radiators and not any stored hot water, then a single channel Hive is OK. And it would also be OK if it was a fully pumped system with motorised valve/s and another device controlling the heating of the hot water.

Its a very old house, my father and his workmates did all of the work back when there was no google, no forums, no internet no screwfix lol.. and I've just taken it over.. We had a gravity fed coal fire which is still here but unused.. which heated the water and the radiators. As far as I can tell the oil fired central heating system was attached later on as a link up? The outside boiler heats the radiators and the hot water at the same time there is no either or... Its controlled by a very old mechanical timer in the living room that I am trying to replace. As far as I can tell there is still a hot water tank behind the fire which is in line with the system and a decommissioned pump upstairs which again seems inline with the system.

 

[stem]

It does sound like the system I described; in which case a single channel Hive is the wrong product.

Probably time to get the pro's in and bring the whole thing up to the 21st century. Both plumbing and controls.

 

[Calaban]

It does sound like the system I described; in which case a single channel Hive is the wrong product.

Can you tell me why stem? honest question.. Ive never known the water to work without the entire heat system to be on.. at the moment I cant have hot water without heating the house...

 

[stem]

I thought I had. Primarily you will only be able to have hot water when the radiators are hot too....

If the existing boiler heats both hot water (by natural / gravity circulation) and central heating (by pump) a single channel Hive will cause you a problem. When your house is warm and the Hive turns 'off' the central heating, the hot water will go 'off' also, which will probably produce enough hot water in the very cold weather. But, you may / may not get sufficient hot water in milder weather, and won't get any at all during hot weather.

If your system is like this, then it would be normal in such a case to have a dual channel Hive and connect the boiler to the Hot Water and the pump to the Central Heating. That way, the hot water can be set to be 'on' when the central heating isn't.

 

[Calaban]

I thought I had. Primarily you will only be able to have hot water when the radiators are hot too....

Thats basically it... the hot water tank seems to be just in line with the heating.. We moved here 48 years ago there was 1 socket and a fireplace in every room no radiators. My father and friends from work installed the heating bit by bit. Fire and radiators then later an oil boiler which they linked up to the existing work. It all works and for what he had he did a brilliant job.. I'll have to gut the house to change it.. but right now I just wanted to change the switch to the hive so I can control it without pushing in little plastic plugs lol...

 

[Calaban]

Sorry my question is why the Hive single channel is the wrong product? Right now I just need a switch I can control as it just seems to be an on/off system...

And you are absolutely correct... In the summer I can not get hot water without putting on the whole system.. I keep the bathroom radiator on all the time..

 

[stem]

You've not mentioned a room thermostat, only a timer. So at the moment the timer controls the boiler and pump. When the timer is 'on' the pump and boiler run so provide heating and hot water.

When you have the Hive installed it operates differently it's controlled by the temperature of the room it's located in, so when the room in which it's located is warm enough it will turn off the boiler and pump. So you won't get any hot water when the house is warm.