Hot water in F/E tank. Hot water trickle out tap. Steam loft

[JohnHamer1977]

Hi Chris thaks for the reply mate,
I am going to elaborate in my replys just to make sure I don't miss anything so please don't just think I am waffling on or anything:

Yes I have a vent pipe, you can see it poking over the top of the CW cistern on the 1st photo on page 1 of this thread.
I guess this had so many busrts of HW that the whole tank got hot and had water vapour coming off the hot water water in the cold water tank which cause the other moisture damage to the loft as seen in the 4th photo on page 1.

I don't know if all the cold water is from the mains but I did think the toilet flush was from the CW cistern in the loft... but it is only a presumtion due to comments of plumber who came round when we 1st moved in to this house.

I know the hot water is very poor as the force is about a tenth if not less of my normal HW flow from the tap.
But I have measured it using a Guiness pint glass in a min I get 5 pints = 2.36588237 liters

The water seem clear, same as the cold tap really.

Yes the galvanised CW cistern doesn't look too healthy does it... I will replace this when I get some more money.
So there's no diaphram???

The heating controller next to the boiler in the kitchen?
It has a timer with little arrows EG. com on A-B go off B-C etc
with a switch on the timer housing up is timer (thats what we have it on) middle is off (we use this if we know we are going out all day) switch down is constant (never really use this).
Next to the timer is another switch which we thought was just the electric to the boiler... there is no label or indication on it a part from on in red ink.

I can get a photo if you like...
the boiler is a:
POTTERTON
Flamingo 40


Thanks

 

[oilman]

I don't know if all the cold water is from the mains..............

As I wrote earlier, run a cold tap and see if the cold water cistern fills.

 

[Softus]

1. whats the differance between steam and water vapour? (just out of curiosity)

Principally temperature, but they represent different states of the same compound. Steam is gaseous water, which at sea level must therefore be >= 100 degC. It is transparent and will scald naked skin instantly. Water vapour is liquid water, in the form of tiny droplets, that is held in suspension in air. The ability of air to do this increases with temperature, hence the effect of condensation when warm air meets the surface of a cold[er] object.

2. when you say the purpose of the Immersion heater is as back-up... does that mean I shouldn't need to have mine on at all if I left my kitchen boiler on "constant" on the timer?

That's correct. The decision of which you choose to use more is one of economics and convenience. Even if you leave the boiler on a timed setting, your system is likely to have been designed to heat and store enough hot water in the cylinder to last you through the 'off' period until the next boiler 'on' period.

3. Air-lock, I have tried 2 methods of sorting the air lock... one via hand over a mixer tap and the other using my washing machine pipes and hose.
Can I pressume we have pretty much eliminated that as a cause?

I would say so, yes, although this area of diagnosis is hard across the Internet.

So I am now buying into the scale problem and acting accordingly, right?

I would say so, yes.

4. I have previously mention when we 1st moved in the hot water stoped coming out of taps altogether... a plumber tod us it was a "diaphram" he un blocked with a bit of wire somewhere in the loft.
Did I get blagged?

If he fixed your problem, then I doubt it.

...or is there a diaphram that a piece of wire can un-block.

Hm. I can't immediately think of any diaphragm that would be in the loft. If he did actually unblock something with some wire, and his action fixed your problem, then I surmise that he unblocked the outlet from the cold storage cistern. If it happened once, then it could have happened again, especially when I look at the photo of the questionable state of your cistern (small, galvanised steel, no lid, apparently contaminated, etc.).

If yes, I know this can make the hot taps flow or not flow but could it also cause a slow flow like in my case?

Quite conceivably, yes.

5. (please see pic)
there seems to be 2 stopcocks... one is in the picture and one is on a pipe that goes between the big cold water tank and the smaller insulated tank in the loft... which one do I need to turn off before proceeding with cutting the pipe as you described.

I would put my money on the one in the picture being the one you need to shut off. The one in the loft (that feeds the smaller cistern) is irrelevant to this exercise.

also, I have identified 2 potential cutting points A and B which if any of these are best to use... if niether can you describe a better place?

'B' is the one I was attempting to describe in words

I am going to be poking into the cylinder but what if it's above that point shall I poke upward whie I am there, after that how do I check further up EG. right at the cold cistern in the loft?

Having cut the pipe, you could hold a bin liner under the open end, directing water into a bucket, and open the stop cock - see if you get normal flow at this point, and draw your conclusions from that new knowledge.

 

[JohnHamer1977]

I don't know if all the cold water is from the mains..............

As I wrote earlier, run a cold tap and see if the cold water cistern fills.

Ah, yes sorry I forgot... will have to do that tomorrow


Anyone -
I still don't understand where the small tank in the loft comes into play?
anyone have a link or can explain in laymans

 

[Softus]

I still don't understand where the small tank in the loft comes into play?
anyone have a link or can explain in laymans

In the "discountedheating" image that you posted, the small cistern (aka tank) is called the "HEATING SYSTEM FEED TANK". Its function is two-fold: firstly to hold a reservoir of water that tops up the heating system, aka the primary circuit; secondly to accept any water that is displaced by expansion of the contents of the primary circuit. Hence the more commonly used name "Feed and expansion" cistern, aka "F&E".

As mentioned before, the water within the primary circuit flows inside the cylinder, but it's contained within a copper coil and therefore does not mix with the DHW (the DHW being the bulk of the water inside the cylinder - your stored hot water).

Think of the coil as an extra radiator that is placed inside the cylinder and immersed in water. Instead of being a radiator that heats the air that warms up your hands and tootsies, it warms up the water inside the cylinder.

Does that answer your question without too much jargon?

 

[JohnHamer1977]

Softus -
a big thank you is due mate
I am on a learning curve here and you are helping a great deal

ChrisR and oilman -
thanks for sticking with me through this, I can appreciate the time it takes so a big thanks to you also


I will crack on tomorrow, will be after 3 physically as I have to look after the kids and my partner is at work and they are not the sort of lads you can leave un-supervised for long chip off the old block LOL

 

[oilman]

ChrisR and oilman -
thanks for sticking with me through this, I can appreciate the time it takes so a big thanks to you also

Thanks not required, just pop a signed but otherwise blank cheque in the post (and ensure the account balance is healthy of course)

 

[JohnHamer1977]

I still don't understand where the small tank in the loft comes into play?
anyone have a link or can explain in laymans

In the "discountedheating" image that you posted, the small cistern (aka tank) is called the "HEATING SYSTEM FEED TANK". Its function is two-fold: firstly to hold a reservoir of water that tops up the heating system, aka the primary circuit; secondly to accept any water that is displaced by expansion of the contents of the primary circuit. Hence the more commonly used name "Feed and expansion" cistern, aka "F&E".

As mentioned before, the water within the primary circuit flows inside the cylinder, but it's contained within a copper coil and therefore does not mix with the DHW (the DHW being the bulk of the water inside the cylinder - your stored hot water).

Think of the coil as an extra radiator that is placed inside the cylinder and immersed in water. Instead of being a radiator that heats the air that warms up your hands and tootsies, it warms up the water inside the cylinder.

Does that answer your question without too much jargon?

I think I have got it:
The small insulated cistern in the loft is the F&E tank if so...
the primary circuit, so the F&E can top up the boiler if needed and take and water it or the circuit it's on needs to displace?

And that water primary circuit doesn't mix with the stored hot water.
Only heats it via the coil in the cylider.

The coil of hot water from the primary circuit basically heats the stored water in the cylinder in the same way as the immersion heater does by heat conduction?

 

[Softus]

I think I have got it:
The small insulated cistern in the loft is the F&E tank if so...
the primary circuit, so the F&E can top up the boiler if needed and take and water it or the circuit it's on needs to displace?

And that water primary circuit doesn't mix with the stored hot water.
Only heats it via the coil in the cylider.

The coil of hot water from the primary circuit basically heats the stored water in the cylinder in the same way as the immersion heater does by heat conduction?

Indeed you have got it, on all three counts. If I knew who George was I'd do a Rex Harrison impression

 

[JohnHamer1977]

UPDATE:
Made not a lot of progress today.

The big CW cistern tank in the loft does NOT feed any cold water taps or toilet flush system.
I ran all cold taps in the house and flushed the toilet and nothing.

So this must only be to supply the DHW cylinder in the bedroom below.



I have not had the cylinder ON since xmas eve still so I still don't know if replacing the thermastat has stopped the water vapour in the loft from the cylinder vent pipe.

 

[JohnD]

Just a point if you're going to be cutting pipes - get a Pipeslice of the appropriate size (this will cut a perfect circle with no jagged edges, it will be easy to re-join. it will also get into a tight corner where other cutters won't

And, before you cut, make sure you have a few compression straight connectors, some plumbers jointing white paste, a few spare olives, and at least two spanners that will fit the compression joints.

I hate to think of you cutting a pipe and having no way of re-assembling it.

It also won't hurt to have plenty of buckets, and an assistant who has already practiced turning off the main stopcock.

 

[JohnHamer1977]

Just a point if you're going to be cutting pipes - get a Pipeslice of the appropriate size (this will cut a perfect circle with no jagged edges, it will be easy to re-join. it will also get into a tight corner where other cutters won't

And, before you cut, make sure you have a few compression straight connectors, some plumbers jointing white paste, a few spare olives, and at least two spanners that will fit the compression joints.

I hate to think of you cutting a pipe and having no way of re-assembling it.

It also won't hurt to have plenty of buckets, and an assistant who has already practiced turning off the main stopcock.

thanks for the reply...
I have got a pipeslice somewhere, will get another if it won't go round that size pipe.

I was gonna try the push on type connector are they any good?

Yeah, good plan about having a mate with me.

Cheers

 

[JohnD]

I hear push ons are OK, though I've never used them myself as I still have half a crate of compression fittings to use up.

Best of luck!

 

[Softus]

Push fit fittings are fine, but when connecting to copper you should check the condition of the end of the tube.

Pipeslices generally leave a nice clean end, but if any doubt buy demountable fittings and disassemble them so that you can manually fit the rubber 'O' ring and see that it doesn't get damaged.

 

[JohnD]

Bit of wire wool or green scourer on the pipe to polish it up will help the connector slide and seal, too.