house buying and electrics

[masamune]

On forums like this it is common to see posts where they say they are getting an electrician in often they claim he's on holiday but we know that will not be the case. In the main this is apparent by the questions asked. We have got use to reading between the lines and so will give advice accordingly. When being fitted by an electrician we do not need to remind him of the RCD requirement for new circuits for example but we often will talk about this as we expect it is not going to be fitted by an electrician.

For the love of god, it is a theoretical conversation. If someone is stupid enough to play the electrician and put their life and other's at risk, there is nothing you can do.

Every electrician follows standards but also have their own views. All I wanted is to hear some opinions about what should be fitted in this case.

The work IS done by a certified and very competent electrician who will provide a certificate. The CU has dual RCDs on it. Do you want me to post the certificate up here or something?

Today in the main I would use 10mm² cable for a new cooker feed to make it future proof and on the paperwork I would call it a 45A feed fitted with a B16 MCB to match installed oven. I would hope then any electrician would swap the B16 MCB for a larger one if required in the future.

This is all I wanted to know, thank you

 

[EFLImpudence]

Today in the main I would use 10mm² cable for a new cooker feed to make it future proof and on the paperwork I would call it a 45A feed fitted with a B16 MCB to match installed oven. I would hope then any electrician would swap the B16 MCB for a larger one if required in the future.

This is all I wanted to know, thank you

But I would not do it like that as it is way over the top for a domestic oven/cooker.

So it is up to your electrician.

 

[JohnW2]

Today in the main I would use 10mm² cable for a new cooker feed to make it future proof ...

But I would not do it like that as it is way over the top for a domestic oven/cooker.

Indeed, as you say, given diversity it would seem way OTT. With 'clipped direct' installation (probably the most likely for a cooker circuit), 10mm² would support a cooking appliance load of about 190A (43.7 kW at 230V)! I think some people get a bit carried away by thinking about shower circuits - for which diversity is not applicable and 10mm² cable therefore not necessarily inappropriate (indeed, actually required with some installation methods).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

We have got use to reading between the lines and so will give advice accordingly.

I didn't see any lines to read between.

I did see what JohnW2 saw, at the start.

But then I saw this:

My problem is that the electrician insists not to install a separate cable for the oven alone.

And before we know it he's saying "If I install a new cable what would be the best option for Neff?" and asking for help in working out what size to use.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I just want to fit a sodding cable "lying" there pro-actively for my future cooker. As no dedicated MCB existed before for the cooker.

There you go again.

Try "I just want my electrician to fit a sodding cable "lying" there pro-actively for my future cooker...."

My electrician should of course know, but ...well he has his views and I'd rather he fitted it than talk about it forever.

You're paying him. Tell him to install a 32A circuit!

Besides the cable need not be live, so nothing to certify about it.

Apart from design and construction, of course.

Can we all agree what that should be for:

1. Running through a plastic trunking from the CU, then chased into wall to oven socket

2. About 6m distance

3. 3.6kW+ oven

No, we can't.

That's your electrician's job, if you tell him you want to be able to use a 3.6kW, or a 4kW, or a 20kW oven.

He keeps asking me for the manufacturer's spec, I cannot find any further info other than the wattage load really.

Why on earth should your electrician need any more information than the size of the load?

Does he think Neff have to tell him what type and size of cable to run between the CU and the outlet plate? What's wrong with him? Why doesn't he know? He's an electrician, isn't he?

The manual does not refer to the power supply cable, only the appliance connecting cable.

How could it?

How can the maker know how long the cable will be, what derating factors will need to be applied? What environmental considerations need to be taken into account?

Your electrician, if he exists, is useless.

 

[masamune]

Of course I meant "my electrician". When people say we are installing a new boiler, hopefully they are not doing it themselves.

There is no reading between the lines when the thread starts with a mention to a certified electrician. But I understand why people try to suggest caution in forums like this.

How could it?

How can the maker know how long the cable will be, what derating factors will need to be applied? What environmental considerations need to be taken into account?

Your electrician, if he exists, is useless.

I am not suggesting the maker should know that, just transferring his request which I disagree with myself.

Of course he exists, he has done a lot of the work neatly and talks about the standards like a bible.

I don't know why he is making such a fuss for a standard cooker cable, perhaps he just doesn't want to do it.

The problem as you already stated, is that nobody will certify another person's work. Will have to do the certification for all the work paid, then I'm afraid he is going out the door.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Of course I meant "my electrician". When people say we are installing a new boiler, hopefully they are not doing it themselves.

There is no reading between the lines when the thread starts with a mention to a certified electrician.

Indeed, and if you note I agreed with John about the initial posts.

But then we had you reporting that your electrician was refusing to do something for no possible good reason, you getting frustrated because you couldn't therefore get a circuit installed ready for the oven, and you asking how to use a cable sizing calculator, what values to enter into it, what type of cable to use, and so on.

I am not suggesting the maker should know that, just transferring his request which I disagree with myself.

Indeed, but it's a very worrying request. All the factors which prevent Neff from specifying the cable to use are all the things he should understand, and be able to work out himself.

Just to confirm - you are absolutely sure that he's talking about the fixed circuit cable from the CU to the outlet plate, not the cable which connects that to the oven?

I don't know why he is making such a fuss for a standard cooker cable, perhaps he just doesn't want to do it.

Maybe. Any obvious reason why he might not want to?

[EDIT]Quoting gaffe corrected.[/EDIT]

 

[DetlefSchmitz]

But I understand why people try to suggest caution in forums like this.

[quote]
How could it?

It would be helpful if you would take more trouble with your quoting markup. It's not rocket science.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It would and it isn't.

Apologies.

 

[masamune]

I really can't tell why he doesn't want to do it. I think he just wants to go to another job and make some more money. Any sensible client would give him the sack. I just have to put up with him till the work is certified...or should I?

And yes our discussion was pretty clear about the mains cable running to the oven from the CU (he is an electrician after all).

The reason being that floorboards will be put back with flooring layed on top. You can imagine the damage for just running a separate cable from CU to the oven at a later time.

 

[masamune]

Well this needs an update....

After a long argument, eventually I had a 6mm cable ran under the floor.

The electrician kept coming back to the house and leaving, arguing that the "works" must be finished in order for him to certify.

What he called works was two decorators painting the wall, while he argued they would be pulling out switches to paint around. I don't know how electricians are supposed to test, but no major building work was taking place i.e no drilling, demolition etc. The decorators place tape around all sockets, switches and light fittings.

I argued that his point was a catch 22,

a) the decorator was ****ed with him because he went around touching all the finished walls leaving smudges and marks - does someone actually need to rub their entire palm on a wall to fit a socket....I rest my case.

b) if everything was finished and the testing failed, we would have to ruin all that work to pull out cables/sockets/switches.

c) eventually any switch or socket may be pulled out to be replaced or repaired. In my view the certification is valid for the condition of the circuit at the date/time of inspection, less any important aspects i.e choice of configuration and materials that may fail in the future.

And I was right again, on the day of inspection one of the switches didn't work and no live was coming to it. The wiring is under the floor and so it was left without functioning, leaving an external light dead.

The next thing I would like some advice on, is that I am experiencing some voltage drop/light dimming. I probably have to start a new topic...

 

[JohnW2]

Well this needs an update....

Thanks. It sounds as if you don't have the most helpful, or even most sensible, of electricians on board.

And I was right again, on the day of inspection one of the switches didn't work and no live was coming to it. The wiring is under the floor and so it was left without functioning, leaving an external light dead.

It clearly isn't ideal, or necessarily even satisfactory, to just leave things like that, since there's no telling what the (probably hidden) problem may be.

Kind Regards, John