House Losing Heat Fast -

[GeddyMortgage]

Hi all,

I'm trying to track down and fix a problem we've noticed this Winter where we're waking up to a really cold property, some mornings it's been as low as 7.5 degrees inside and we believe there's likely a bunch of issues contributing to it. We're dealing with fixing the loft insulation on a separate post(which has become quite a long thread)

Last night for example, we had the heating on for a couple hrs, went up from 12degrees or so, upto 17space, which is fine, but woke up again this morning to about 11ish, over the space of only 8hrs or so. I've atached the hive logs so you can see how quickly it's dropping too, this is not normal right? It was about -2 overnight outside but even still it seems like it's dropping super quick.

I've noticed the landing floor is always cold, so I lay down on it earlier today and I can feel a slight cold woft of air and have noticed some fabrics on the stairs moving round a bit as if being gently blown by wind, the wife think's its just convection of air but im wondering if its a draft on the landing somewhere. Pic below (thermostat in purple)

I guess a couple questions based on the above,

:- What's the best way of tracking down the source of drafts? I tried for 30mins this morning holding my hands to surfaces and slightly gaps in the landing skirting boards etc, but no joy.

:- where the ground floor vertical windows are on that photo is a recent small front extension, If any of that was letting air in, would I be feeling that on the landing floor higher up than it? or is it likely coming from a different source, such as the big landing window? or somewhere higher up?


:- fixing Poor insulation in the loft isn't going to fix the symptoms i've explained here right? im correct to assume this sounds like two seperate issues that both need addressing?



thanks so much,.


Ged

 

[JohnD]

Are you living in a converted church with solid walls? And open to the roof so all warm air rises away from the living area?

Tell us more about the insulation and draughtproofing you have, the size and construction of the building, and how many kWh of heat you have been using per average day for the past freezing week.

 

[GeddyMortgage]

Yes sorry, I should’ve said.

Originally a 1955 bungalow, suspended floors. (Partially insulated, WIP)

Previous owner Extended from a bungalow to a 3 story property in 2008, re-bricked and added wall insulation to cavity then (glass wool battens)

Re: what Draft proofing is in place - no idea how to answer that. I’d assume nothing given my lack of knowledge on the subject.

Re: Kw usage - I’ll come back to this, though this problem has been noticed since November \ October really and have been trying to rectify as I find things one by one.

Eg mentioned above though on a separate thread, most portions of loft are 100mm insulated, some portions 0 insulation, though I’m thinking there’s two problems, lack of loft insulation and drafts too.

The rate of the reduction in temp and the fact I can feel a breeze, I’m concerned I’ll fix all the loft but still be left have with an issue where the warm air is being turned over by a draft. So obviously want to attack all avenues.

 

[JohnD]

The breeze might be downward flow of cold air, typically down an external wall or window. It need not be a draught from outside.

 

[Old Salt]

That big window wont be helping nor will those windows downstairs. Curtains will help to keep the heat in, it may spoil the aesthetics but it will help to keep you warm and reduce bills.

 

[GeddyMortgage]

Appreciate it won’t be helping re: the windows, though they’re not that old, landing window 2008 ish, verticals down stairs only fitted a few months ago.

Given how ’new’ they are, could they be the culprit for the drafts I’m feeling when I put my head down to the level of the landing floor carpet? I’m happy to consider replacing the landing arch window for thermal triple glazing and/or happy to add secondary glazing to both the landing and verticals downstairs if needed (verticals are already double glazed acoustic laminate)

That said Ideally I’d like to be atleast a little confident that some of the problems will go away before I start throwing money at the potential solutions in earnest.

Is there a method any of you would recommend to help me locate the source of the problem? As previously mentioned I am looking to properly insulate the loft regardless (270-400mm, up from the current 100-150mm) but for drafts, how are people going about finding them?

Eg - Has anyone tried those thermal guns and were you successful in finding the thermal vulnerabilities of your property when you did? Jewsons will loan me one for £50 for 24hs. Just wondering if that’s enough even worth it?

Alternatively has anyone had a “draft test” done? I saw the term banded around online just not sure if viable in my scenario

Just when I see how quickly the temp is dropping without the heating on, I know I’ve got to do something just a case of which direction to go in to sensibly try and fix this.

What do you guys think?


Thanks

Ged

 

[JohnD]

a “draft test”

Joss sticks

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Has anyone tried those thermal guns and were you successful in finding the thermal vulnerabilities of your property when you did? Jewsons will loan me one for £50 for 24hs. Just wondering if that’s enough even worth it?

If you mean an FLIR (infra red) camera, yes,. they are very handy for checking if there are gaps in insulation or missing pieces. I've read that they can sometimes be handy for finding leaks, who knows? On the last new build I did we had a surveyor out who went round with one and identified areas where the insulation was sub-par, allowing us to take remedial action before the air test (perhaps this is what you meant by a "draft test"?). It is possible to buy FLIR add-on modules for many smart phones at £200 and upwards (TBH something I am seriously considering) - they have a narrow field of view and relatively low resolution agsinst a proper FLIR camera, but still seem good enough to find defects in insulation. Sadly, a lot of newer buildings have poorly installed insulation - this is partly because on many builds insulation gets installed in a haphazard and poorly controlled manner with little care taken to ensure the required tight fits and little ot no supervision.

In an air test the doors and windows are all closed and a large fan mounted in a baffle plate is installed in the front door opening and the edges sealed. The fan is switched on and generates negative pressure in the building. You then go round finding air leaks using a non-toxic smoke spray (@JohnD's suggestion of joss sticks works just as well) - and wherever possible sealing the leaks with expanding foam and/or silicone. You can get a domestic air test done, but it won't really help you locate defects in insulation.

 

[GeddyMortgage]

If you mean an FLIR (infra red) camera, yes,. they are very handy for checking if there are gaps in insulation or missing pieces. I've read that they can sometimes be handy for finding leaks, who knows? On the last new build I did we had a surveyor out who went round with one and identified areas where the insulation was sub-par, allowing us to take remedial action before the air test (perhaps this is what you meant by a "draft test"?). It is possible to buy FLIR add-on modules for many smart phones at £200 and upwards (TBH something I am seriously considering) - they have a narrow field of view and relatively low resolution agsinst a proper FLIR camera, but still seem good enough to find defects in insulation. Sadly, a lot of newer buildings have poorly installed insulation - this is partly because on many builds insulation gets installed in a haphazard and poorly controlled manner with little care taken to ensure the required tight fits and little ot no supervision.

Yeah I’ve seen them on Amazon though seriously mixed reviews unless you go for the ‘pro’ ones which are nigh on the price of having an actual ‘pro’ come and do a full thermal survey…. So not sure which is best there.

In an air test the doors and windows are all closed and a large fan mounted in a baffle plate is installed in the front door opening and the edges sealed. The fan is switched on and generates negative pressure in the building. You then go round finding air leaks using a non-toxic smoke spray (@JohnD's suggestion of joss sticks works just as well) - and wherever possible sealing the leaks with expanding foam and/or silicone.

Yes, I meant exactly that…. As part of the air test Do you know if the actual finding of leaks is included? Or are you just paying them to put the big negative fan in the door way? Think I found a local place that wanted £300 for the test which I thought was fine, haven’t yet enquired what it includes….

If You can get a domestic air test done, but it won't really help you locate defects in insulation.

That’s fine, I think there may well be two issues contributing in tandem to the temp drop. (Drafts and poorly insulated loft areas ) so will be focusing on both.

Also sorry if a silly question but I want go round the property on Sunday sealing all the gaps beneath the skirts. What’s generally the best to do this with? General silicone sealant?

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Do you know if the actual finding of leaks is included? Or are you just paying them to put the big negative fan in the door way? Think I found a local place that wanted £300 for the test which I thought was fine, haven’t yet enquired what it includes….

TBH I don't know. When we get a commercial test done it is in order to get the certification required for the building to be passed by Building Control - and it is generally us who do the smoke spraying and any sealing. So I think you'd need to ask.

I think there may well be two issues contributing in tandem to the temp drop. (Drafts and poorly insulated loft areas ) so will be focusing on both.

There are a number of areas to focus on before gettlng someone in to do a test. That includes the lift hatch (believe itvor not THE major source of air leakage in lofts I am informed), window and door surrounds, service entries to the building (such as waste pipes, gas pipes, BT phone wire, etc), and so forth.

Also sorry if a silly question but I want go round the property on Sunday sealing all the gaps beneath the skirts. What’s generally the best to do this with? General silicone sealant?

Not silly at all. And silicone sealant is ideal for many smaller gaps

 

[GeddyMortgage]

TBH I don't know. When we get a commercial test done it is in order to get the certification required for the building to be passed by Building Control - and it is generally us who do the smoke spraying and any sealing. So I think you'd need to ask.

Yeah ok maybe I need to speak to our building control folks and see if they can recommend a local team to do it.

There are a number of areas to focus on before gettlng someone in to do a test. That includes the lift hatch (believe itvor not THE major source of air leakage in lofts I am informed), window and door surrounds, service entries to the building (such as waste pipes, gas pipes, BT phone wire, etc), and so forth.

Yeah that’s what I’m hoping to do ahead of the air test by DIY’ing as much as possible.

We don’t have a hatch as it has two dorma bedrooms on the top floor, has fire rated French doors separating one of those bedrooms from the cold loft space, I’ve hung some heavy thermal curtains behind them to help and draft excluder at the foot of the French doors.

Service entries is a good shout! I never have insulated the access hatch in which they sit.

For door and window surrounds im
Better using a caulk than silicone?

Is there another DIY method of furthering the stopping of drafts in windows? I saw online some like 3m type adhesive draft strips you can use. Though not sure if they’re any good?

Not silly at all. And silicone sealant is ideal for many smaller gaps

Ah ok cool thanks for that, wasn’t sure if best to use silicone or expanding foam or caulk. Some of the gaps are a good few mm… quite large! Was gonna put some mineral in them before sealing regardless

 

[Old Salt]

You could try pinning a duvet cover or sheet over the windows to see if it makes a difference. We have a bay window and a straight curtain rail in our guest room. With the curtains drawn you can feel the temperature difference creeping under the curtains.

 

[old duffer]

the loss if of course simple physics. You will find some rooms loose heat quicker than others (no space retains heat, it just looses it more slowly). Temp diff from inside/outside, Humidity differential between rooms in the house and outside, insulation levels etc, you know what causes heat loss so you need to find them and measure them

The cheap hand held infrared thermometers are perfect as a very good indicator of a problem area.
I have a large home over several floors and by recording data for 2 years, fitting a boiler that has a flow temp control option (based on incoming air tem and return water temp) and knowing the heat loss per room, I was able to match heating input (floe temp) to match loss based on outside temp/humidity. Now the entire home and every room is within 1 degree of each other and within 5% humidity
I no longer have heating zones or room thermostats as It is perfectly balanced.
I used a hive system to record the heat losses over time and added external and room sensors to record temp/humidity.
I also used lost in insulation...that is always always the thing to do.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Service entries is a good shout! I never have insulated the access hatch in which they sit.

Pipes and cables often come in through holes which are far bigger than the service and which the builder attempts to fill with sand and cement which al.ost always cracks and falls out over time. This is a sufficiently large problem for there to now be a couple of firms selling flexible sealing collars.

For door and window surrounds im
Better using a caulk than silicone?

I think any flexible sealamt would do the trick. We use silicone becsuse we always have it in stock

...wasn’t sure if best to use silicone or expanding foam or caulk. Some of the gaps are a good few mm… quite large! Was gonna put some mineral in them before sealing regardless

For door and window surrounds im
Better using a caulk than silicone?

I think any flexible sealant would do the trick. For door casings and frames we tend to use a flexible fireproof acoustic caulk because we also need to meet fire regs. Fire doors do require a much more stringent approach

You can use foam to fill the bigger gaps to below the surface and then silicone or caulk on top to complete the seal once the foam has set and if needs be trimmed back. There are also products like Fossa Caulk Saver (basically polythene foam "rope" in various diameters) which is designed to do the same job but cuts out the waiting time and the potential need to trim back foam out. Available from decorators stores, etc

 

[foxhole]

Every home in the country is going to be cold in the morning, with no heating on overnight.